Subject: Re: you people drive CRAZY!

From: [email-masked]
Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:03:49 GMT

Robin wrote:
>Also I notice many drivers try to turn left, paying attention only to the
>oncoming traffic and not to pedestrians who may be crossing/beginning to

The flip side of that is the fact that now, its dangerous to try a left turn 
after the light has turned yellow, because of the aforementioned redrunners.

--Girirajan--

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From: [email-masked] (John Downing)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:00:09

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>From: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: you people drive CRAZY!
>Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:03:49 GMT

>after the light has turned yellow, because of the aforementioned redrunners.

Maybe we should install gates, like at railroad crossings.  On the other hand, 
in this part of the country you often have to wait over a minute for the next 
green, as opposed to 20-30 seconds in other portions of the country.  This 
GREATLY increases the urge to run.  Reducing this wait time would be more 
effective than all the attempts at stricter enforcement.

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From: [email-masked] (Tom Jones)
Date: 30 Aug 1995 16:02:17 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
>effective than all the attempts at stricter enforcement.

Seems like a chicken and egg problem.  If people run red lights for a
certain time after the light turns red, traffic authorities make the
lights show all red for almost time period.  This adds a small amount
of time to the light cycle, and also makes it so a long light cycle
is more efficient (since the green time is larger compared to the
all-red), so the light cycle increases, which as you say makes
people more likely to run the lights.

I think the only solution is to actually make people responsible for
breaking the law and give them tickets for running red lights; I hope
the photodetector experiment in Virginia spreads to Maryland soon.
I relish the day that Green means Green again.

-tom

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From: [email-masked] (Pam Jadwick)
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:31:23 GMT

Since I've been in Maryland, I've seen several drivers
turn LEFT on red -- and not in the case of two ONE-WAY
streets intersecting.  I don't recall reading that in
the driver's handbook.  Is it legal?  Is it custom?  What's
the deal?

-- 
Pam J.
Opinions are my own...

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From: [email-masked] (Eric Landau)
Date: 31 Aug 1995 18:20:19 GMT

I consider myself a somewhat aggressive driver (I was a cabdriver -- not 
in D.C. -- during my misspent youth), but apparently it is not so by local 
standards.

For seven years my wife and I commuted daily by car from suburban 
Maryland to the White House via the streets in rush-hour traffic.  I 
always drove.  I confess that occasionally I would flagrantly (by my 
standards) run red lights (after discovering that, in D.C., traffic 
enforcement is an oxymoron).  Out of habit, to let my wife know that I 
wasn't unalert, I would say something like "I'm going to run this light."

She would turn around and, when the foul deed was done, call out a 
number.  Did you guess?  That's right; she was counting the number of 
cars who ran the red light BEHIND ME!  In seven years she never had a 
single zero!  Average was close to four.

--
Eric Landau, APL Solutions, Inc. ([email-masked])
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman

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From: [email-masked] (Chris Hill)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 19:06:12 +0700

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Kat
Bohnet) wrote:

> In article <[email-masked]>,
> Paul S. Wolf <[email-masked]> wrote:
> >
> >In a previous article, [email-masked] (Pam Jadwick) says:
> >

[...]

> >NO its simply Illegal.
> >
> 
> Reminds me of the time I was sitting at a red light at a shopping center
> on the Rockville Pike. (perpendicular to the Pike) A woman pulls up next
> to me and then proceeds to make a left hand turn onto to the Pike. In the
> middle of the red light...not at the beginning or end of the cycle. My 
> mother, who is used to rural Washington state driving, nearly came 
> unglued...

Don't blame her. That's *completely* irrational, unsafe, illegal, etc. But
then, such considerations don't normally stop people from doing what they
do; why should driving be any exception? Left turn on red is{oughtta be}
legal WHEN BOTH STREETS ARE ONE-WAY, because that is topologically
equivalent to right on red.

> "In nature, there are neither rewards nor punishments --
> there are consequences." -- "Some Reasons Why" Robert [Green] Ingersoll

Also Godley & Creme :-)

---
Chris                                 [email-masked]
What would happen if I pulled the plug on the Reality Engine?

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From: [email-masked] (Richard Looney)
Date: 2 Sep 1995 08:02:49 -0400

>> equivalent to right on red.

In more enlightened cities "left turn on red when both streets are one-way"
is legal, but that's not the situation described in the post you're
responded to - i.e. turning onto Rockville Pike.

As for unsafe, illegal, *and* irrational, I doubt that a person turning
left onto Rockville Pike against a red light would be all three. The
driver probably had a damn good (and to her, very rational) reason to 
run that light.

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From: [email-masked] (Joshua Lurie-Turrell)
Date: 26 Aug 1995 02:12:27 GMT

I spent the last week and a half in DC, having a mostly fantastic time 
(your museums are easily the best in the country - I spent hours in the 
Corcoran, Hirshorn, National, Phillips, etc), but noticed that there are 
a very large number of dangerously insane drivers out there - i saw more 
people run red lights in the dupont circle area (i was staying at the 
hilton on connecticut, up the hill from dupont circ) and throughout the 
NW streets... than I ever have in any other city anywhere - incl NYC!

EAch red light must have had at least 2 people run it, and yellow seems 
to mean "speed up" not slow down out there. Crazy, boss.

Joshua

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 26 Aug 1995 19:14:08 GMT

[email-masked] (Joshua Lurie-Turrell) wrote:
>Corcoran, Hirshorn, National, Phillips, etc), but noticed that there are a 
>very large number of dangerously insane drivers out there - i saw more 
>hilton on connecticut, up the hill from dupont circ) and throughout the NW 
>streets... than I ever have in any other city anywhere - incl NYC!

	Define what you mean by running a light. I very rarely see anyone 
go through an intersection with a red light after the light has changed 
after three seconds. 
	There's another definition for yellow other than speed up? 
Enlighten... ;)

--
Damien Weiss * "The number of Unix installations has grown to 10, with
703.516.9032 * more expected in the future." Unix Programmers Manual (1972)
Arlington VA *

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 28 Aug 1995 13:31:40 GMT

>go through an intersection with a red light after the light has changed 

You rarely see this?  I don't know about "3 seconds", but I see people ENTER 
the intersection after the light has CLEARLY turned red all the time.  

Anyway, do you mean its OK to enter the intersection for up to 2 seconds after 
the light has changed red?

--Girirajan--

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From: [email-masked] (Robin )
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:51:11 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] wrote:

> ...
> The increasing frequency with which I observe area drivers running
> red lights is mind-boggling to me.  So many drivers seem to blast
> through red lights while accelerating, apparently in some wild
> disbelief that the faster they clear the intersection, the "safer"
> it is to run through.
> 
> Doesn't it occur to any of them that other cars might already be
> in motion, at speed, without ever having to slow down for the
> opposing red light?  
> ...

Or more importantly, pedestrians might already be in the crosswalk, having
started to cross on the WALK sign. And there are lots of pedestrians in
urban downtowns. I rarely see pedestrians mentioned in the discussions on
dangers of running red lights, just vehicles.

Also I notice many drivers try to turn left, paying attention only to the
oncoming traffic and not to pedestrians who may be crossing/beginning to
cross the street/driveway they want to turn into. They accelerate rapidly,
cutting across any small break in the oncoming traffic. Then they make a
panic stop when they see the pedestrian for the first time. The oncoming
drivers also have to slam their brakes and the traffic blocked till the
turning driver is able to complete the turn.

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From: [email-masked] (Richard Looney)
Date: 28 Aug 1995 08:44:26 -0400

>> to mean "speed up" not slow down out there. Crazy, boss.

I lived in DC (Adams-Morgan) between 1982-1986. During that time my
driving style became increasingly 'aggressive'. I rationalized this
behavior via my perception that the traffic lights were not "timed"
at all, and their switching cycles always seemed way too long. I
may have been in error; my point is the DC traffic environment creates
a lot of driver frustration. Other problems include a large percentage
of inept drivers, lousy road surfaces and inadeqaute signage.

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From: [email-masked] (Joe Gregor)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:03:32 GMT

In Article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Richard Looney)
>of inept drivers, lousy road surfaces and inadeqaute signage.

    You might also add the fact that DC spends all of its resources pursuing
_parking_ violations, not traffic violations. The same people who brought
you bancruptsy are clearly convinced that bad parking is far more dangerous
to life, limb, propert, and quality of life that any moving violation ever
could be. *sarcasm off*

    None of which justifies the lack of courtesy and actual physical danger
breaking the law in this manner represents. I've seen 4 or five cars blaze
thru a red light after it has clearly changed. In fact, it is unusual to see
a light turn red _without_ at least one driver running the thing before
traffic stops. Once I actually decided to take my green light, as the law
allows, and was cussed out by the guy who, while clearly running a red light,
I suppose truly believed _he_ still had the right of way.

        -- Joe

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From: Phyllis Wilder <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Aug 1995 18:21:14 GMT

>to mean "speed up" not slow down out there. Crazy, boss.

I have been in DC for 16 years now after moving here from NYC.  I see two 
problems here in DC. 

     1)  The road test for driving licences in DC is a joke. (speaking 
         from personal experience, of course);

     2)  DC has the longest yellow lights in creation therefore making 
         people think that they have time to get through the intersection 
         before the light changes red.  And more often than not you do.

Phyllis Wilder

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From: [email-masked] (Todd A. Scalzott)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:48:45 GMT

> the light has changed red?

Glad to finally see some discussion on this.

I have come up on red lights many times that turn green before I
get there, with no line of traffic ahead of me.  Ridiculous that I
have to slow down, and sometimes even stop, to avoid hitting some
idiot who is blowing through the opposing red.
-- 
Todd A. Scalzott, Systems Programmer   [email-masked] / [email-masked]
Kastle Development Associates          ...!netcom!friend!todd  
Team OS/2

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From: [email-masked] (Chris Hill)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 18:34:19 +0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Joe Gregor) wrote:

[major snip]

> I've seen 4 or five cars blaze

Yeesh! Lucky you were just cussed out, and not T-boned! Or shot, for that
matter. I frequently wonder to myself, "just how red does it have to be
before they'll stop?" FWIW, I usually stop (if possible) for *yellow*
lights. I'm sure that's made for much speculation about my ancestry and
personal habits on the part of drivers behind me...

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From: [email-masked] (Todd A. Scalzott)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:49:01 GMT

>          before the light changes red.  And more often than not you do.

Except that in DC, it is illegal to run a YELLOW light as well as a red
one.  (Unless that was changed over the past few years; it certainly
used to be enforced.)