From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:28:03 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA22156 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:28:03 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netcomsv!uu3news.netcom.com!peterg!jon.simon
From: jon.simon@solar.org (Jon Simon)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 05:05:18 GMT
Message-ID: <9504180108285482@solar.org>
Organization: The Solar System BBS 714-837-9677
Distribution: world
References: <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.n
Lines: 12        
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 671
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 


RE: cops seeing decapitated babies etc all cause by speeders of course.

JamieYanak@oai.org, your post was stupid.  Here's why.  Lets say 10000
deaths will occur at 55mph.  Well, at 45 i'd bet 7000 would occur.
Hell, at 30 5000 would occur.  No, wait!  At 20 3000 would occur.  Hold
on... at 10, 1000 deaths would occur.  Oh my god!  At 1, 5 deaths would
occur!  Stop everything!  If we don't move at all, nobody will die!
YIPEEE!  Obvioulsy since you advocate 55mph and therefore all the deaths
which occur at that speed, you must be a sick perverted bastard.  You
must savor every single death.  Shame on you for driving at all, there's
the possibility you might die!

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:28:37 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA22259 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:28:37 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 21:58:48 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2104952158480001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.n <9504180108285482@solar.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 943
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <9504180108285482@solar.org>, jon.simon@solar.org (Jon Simon) wrote:

> JamieYanak@oai.org, your post was stupid.  Here's why. Stop everything! 
If we don't move at all, nobody will die!
> YIPEEE!  Obvioulsy since you advocate 55mph and therefore all the deaths
> which occur at that speed, you must be a sick perverted bastard.

You haven't been following along closely enough.

I don't advocate 55mph speed limit. I think 65mph would be more reasonable.

However the thing that causes accidents on the highway is *differences* in 
speeds *between* vehicles.  If everybody was doing 65mph there wouldn't be 
a problem. 

However the speed limit is generally 55mph, and when people decide that 
they would rather go faster, and begin changing lanes, and going around others,
who are obeying the law, that's where the trouble starts.

So until the speed limit is 65mph, you are creating a hazard by exceeding it.

Jamie-Andrea Yanak

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:37:33 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA24616 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:37:33 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!access1!bentley
From: bentley@access1.digex.net (Mark Bentley)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Date: 18 Apr 1995 17:00:57 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <3n0r89$agb@news3.digex.net>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <3mv32g$qan@ionews.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access1.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:59804 tor.general:20903 ont.general:23537
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 537
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Lest anyone thing speed traps are anything but revenue generators, 
consider the use of unmarked cars by police.  If I'm in a cruisers, 
sitting on the side of the road in broad daylight, just about everybody 
going past is going to slow down toor near the limit.  Thus, dozens of 
cars per minute will be suddenly obeying the law.

If I'm hidden behind a bush in an unmarked Taurus, I will nail one driver 
every ten minutes or so, and create a roadside hazard in the process.

Which scenario can be described as "law enforcement?"

mb

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:43:00 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA25815 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:42:58 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D7AHpz.BxL@isgtec.com>
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Sender: news@isgtec.com (News Owner)
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370001@database-mac.oai.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 15:58:47 GMT
Lines: 127
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60437 tor.general:21130 ont.general:23736
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 6351
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jamie Yanak (JamieYanak@oai.org) wrote:
# In article <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, msf4063@ACFcluster.nyu.edu wrote:
# > Jamie, you're in a dream world if you think that speeding tickets are
# > intended for anything else than revenue.  You think cops write tickets
# > for 60 in a 50 because think it is unsafe? BS!  If cops just wanted
# > to stop people from driving recklessly. .. they'd give tickets
# > for reckless driving, not speeding.
#
# They give tickets for wreckless driving too, and for the same reason they
# give them for speeding: to prevent anarchy on the road.

No,  they *occasionally* give tickets for reckless driving, failing to
yield, etc. to prevent anarchy on the road.  Mostly they only give tickets
for these if there's an accident and they have to.

Speeding is for revenue generation.   If it wasn't for photo radar the
police wouldn't ticket for 120 in a 100 on the 401 at all because the
police aren't stupid enough to believe Bob Rae when he says that it's
a safety issue.

# Besides, if you go far enough
# over the limit, it's considered Wreckless Driving, and you'll get a ticket
# for it along w/your speeding one. 

And without photo radar or radar traps that's just about the only time
that a police officer would stop you - when you're speeding excessively
or speeding and driving dangerously.

# Tickets cost money because there is no other viable way of punishing
# people for such an infraction.

No.  There is no other way that improves general revenue as efficiently.

The best way to prevent driving infractions is with better training and,
instead of just handing out fines, force the driver to reattend a drivers
education class and retest for their license.  Then all those rich guys
in their Lexi and Mercedes who get tickets couldn't just hand them to
their secetaries to "handle".  Plus the bad drivers they stop would get
better instead of just being let go to drive like an idiot again.

But that kind of system wouldn't improve revenues would it.

# Would you rather spend time in jail for speeding? How about 1 day for each
# mile an hour over the limit, doesn't sound very reasonable to me, but it
# might end speeding as we know it! Or how about speed 3 times and lose your
# license.

If speeding is a dangerous as you claim, why does this sound
unreasonable to you?

# If you don't beleive that's the reason, let me ask you: When you're late
# and you want to speed, but change your mind and don't, is it because you
# thought you might get injured doing it, or because you thought it might
# cost you $100

Considering that I don't believe that speeding is inheriently dangerous
my answer is obvious - because it might cost me $100.  You see, I'm not
stupid enough to think that just because Bob Rae says driving 120 in a
100 zone is very dangerous it is dangerous.   Especially considering
that Bob Rae's government is running up a massive deficet and his
solution to this "danger" just happens to generate a lot of money.

But I guess I'm just cynical.   Or perhaps you are naive?

# > Exactly!  Off duty cops speed more than anyone.  Also many police officers
# > cause accidents while running through red lights to buy doughnuts (
# > well, it is true that cops often cause massive amounts of damage in dubious
# > high speed chases .. and break the traffic laws that we have to obey --
# > running red lights, making illegal turns, etc,  -- for no good reason.)
# > They certainly don't lead by example.
#
# When cops get in accidents responding to calls it is *usually* because of
# some idiot that wasn't paying attention, and didn't see the strobes, or
# hear the siren because their radio was to loud.

You didn't address the issue of police officers driving poorly.  I've yet
to see a police car signal a lane change on the 401 or 400!  I've seen
numerous police cars turning without signaling and all sorts of other
safety violations without any reason at all.   Most police officers
speed off duty,  they have a get out of ticket free card.

# As far as "dubious high speed chases" go, if criminals thought police
# wouldn't chase them, they wouldn't bother stopping for them at all.

Yes.  The police *have* to chase,  you never know who is behind the
wheel of a car that rabbits.   Participating in a high speed chase
should result in an automatic prison sentence and loss of license
for the driver.

# Most police departments have strict policies *now* on when you can involve
# yourself in chases (it's not like t.v.). Most departments today will not
# allow you to continue a chase when it is a minor offense that you tried
# stopping them for in the first place. And most supervisors will order you
# to discontinue a chase, if the public is in to great a danger because of
# it.  

I only agree with the "public danger" part.  A large number of wanted
criminals are caught when stopped for routine traffic offences!

# And also contrary to popular belief: Police are not immune to the
# consequences of their actions in situations where they cause accidents. If
# you do not use reasonable judgement in such situations and injure someone,
# or damage their property, you are *personally* liable (meaning your
# savings, your house, you are the one in debt for the rest of your life
# from the lawsuit, not the city you work for) Where I live, an ambulance
# driver recently got out of jail, after being sent there for a couple
# years, because of an accident he caused on duty. 

The police *are* largely immune to the consequences of their actions.
How many of the police officers that have had accidental discharges that
killed suspects or fellow officers are still on duty?   Why is the turnover
at police departments so low for such a high risk, high stress job?
Especially amongst new hires?

# 12 years ago I left the sheriffs dept I worked for,
# because of injuries I sustained trying to catch up w/a speeder, when
# another vehicle 10 feet in front of me couldn't hear my siren, pulled into
# my lane and caused me to run over a muffler at 75 mph that was deposited
# onto the berm by somebodies piece of junk, that shouldn't have even been
# on the road.

Your views on speeding/photo radar are very different from all the other
police officers and former police officers that I know.

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:45:19 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA26328 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:45:18 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!pine.liii.com!iguana
From: iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com>
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Sender: news@liii.com (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: oak.liii.com
Organization: Long Island Information, Inc. (516-248-5381)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 23:29:59 GMT
Lines: 58
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:59879 tor.general:20927 ont.general:23566
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2680
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jamie Yanak (JamieYanak@oai.org) wrote:

: They give tickets for wreckless driving too, and for the same reason they
: give them for speeding: to prevent anarchy on the road. Besides, if you go
: far enough

I think the police should encourage wreckless driving.

: Tickets cost money because there is no other viable way of punishing
: people for such an infraction.

Tickets cost money because the state likes to collect as much tax revenue
as it can. 

: Would you rather spend time in jail for speeding? How about 1 day for each
: mile an hour over the limit, doesn't sound very reasonable to me, but it
: might end speeding as we know it! Or how about speed 3 times and lose your
: license.

: If you don't beleive that's the reason, let me ask you: When you're late
: and you want to speed, but change your mind and don't, is it because you
: thought you might get injured doing it, or because you thought it might
: cost you $100

: You don't have to answer, fines for speeding work, that's why they have them.

Fines for speeding DO NOT work.  Most everyone on the road speeds to a 
certain reasonable extent.  It just gives them some incentive to be careful.


: When cops get in accidents responding to calls it is *usually* because of
: some idiot that wasn't paying attention, and didn't see the strobes, or
: hear the siren because their radio was to loud.

At least where I live, police officers are not only driving dangerously
when responding to calls.  They typically will make any traffic move when
they have room to do so -- including running red lights, making illegal
turns, and even speeding.  This does not include when they are actually
responding to calls.  Of course we are idiots for not driving off into the
shoulder of the road to avoid the cop who runs a red light, with no 
strobes or sirens on, because he's ready for that next pot of coffee. 

: He was responding to a call where a pregnant woman was seriously injured in a 
: vehicle accident, and he caused another death during his response. After his
: conviction, don't tell me other emergency personnel didn't re-evalute just 
: what's in it for them to put themselves in danger, to get there in a hurry,
: when *you* need help. You just can't have it both ways.

Who wants it both ways?

: in the way they won't let somebody "get away from me," but the truth is it's
: no fun flying down the street at 50 mph, not knowing what drive the next
: dumb-shit is going to pull out in front of you from.

I suppose the public is just "dumb shits" to you.  Most of us just want 
to get from point A to B in a reasonable and timely manner, and the State 
wants to make an extra $100 here and there.


From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:46:22 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA26576 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:46:22 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 22:15:15 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60425 tor.general:21123 ont.general:23729
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2206
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com>, iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig) wrote:


> I think the police should encourage wreckless driving.

Pardon moi!
 
> Fines for speeding DO NOT work.  Most everyone on the road speeds to a 
> certain reasonable extent.  It just gives them some incentive to be careful.

Gee, sounds like that incentive you are talking about proves my point. 

Besides most police ignore "reasonable" speeding (5-10mph). If they don't,
even I agree they're being pricks. I never wrote anyone until they were
past 10mph over, (unless I really had it out for them, and there was
nothibng else
I could do) 
  
> At least where I live, police officers are not only driving dangerously
> when responding to calls.  They typically will make any traffic move when
> they have room to do so -- including running red lights, making illegal
> turns, and even speeding.  This does not include when they are actually
> responding to calls.

How do you know where they are going, or what they are doing, are you psychic?
I don't see how an Emergency Vehicle can make an "illegal turn," or speed
for that matter. Emergency Vehicles are exempt from most traffic
regulations, with the stipulation that the driver uses "reasonable care"
not to endanger others.

Sorry, but the fact is in this instance (I know you're going to hate this, but)
police are just allowed to do things, you're not.  

> Of course we are idiots for not driving off into the
> shoulder of the road to avoid the cop who runs a red light, with no 
> strobes or sirens on, because he's ready for that next pot of coffee.

That's NOT what I was talking about. I very clearly stated people who are
so oblivious to what is going on that they can't hear a siren that's 10
feet behind them. Beleive me, there are lots of them out there. 

> I suppose the public is just "dumb shits" to you.  Most of us just want 
> to get from point A to B in a reasonable and timely manner, and the State 
> wants to make an extra $100 here and there.

No I don't think everyone's a dumbshit. But I know from personal
experiance that 
"dumb-shits" comprise a higher percentage of the general population than
most people would think!

Jamie-Andrea Yanak

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:47:26 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA26729 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:47:25 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newshost.marcam.com!uunet!winternet.com!io.org!io.org!nobody
From: mdfreed@io.org (Mark Freedman)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 22 Apr 1995 05:27:25 -0400
Organization: Internex Online (Data: 363-3783/Telnet: io.org)
Lines: 25
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <3nai5t$fcg@ionews.io.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: r-node.io.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60459 tor.general:21160 ont.general:23746
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1152
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>
>Besides most police ignore "reasonable" speeding (5-10mph). If they don't,
>even I agree they're being pricks. I never wrote anyone until they were
>past 10mph over, (unless I really had it out for them, and there was
>nothibng else
>I could do) 

   When Bob Rae's Ontario government discovered that photo-radar wasn't
generating as much revenue as anticipated, they dropped the threshold (I
believe to <10kph, with announced intentions of 'zero tolerance' if the
money didn't start rolling in).

   Photo-radar is an effective revenue-generator, as the machine does not
miss speeders while tied up writing a ticket.

   I question its contribution to safety, at least as (ab)used in Ontario.
I've seen some amazing evasive action (brake hard and swerve) taken when
people spot the radar van hidden behind the bridge abutment.

   btw  I've received a few tickets for 50kph in a 40kph zone, but that was
in the city and, as the officers explained, was a matter of meeting quotas.
-- 
   mdfreed@io.org   Mark Freedman (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:48:46 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA26991 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:48:46 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!can.net!pz.timber.com!bailiff
From: bailiff@pz.timber.com (Shiloh Costa)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 15:07:02
Organization: The Pleasure Zone
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <bailiff.77.000F1E7B@pz.timber.com>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nai5t$fcg@ionews.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.can.net
Summary: Photo-radar is a safety hazard.
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60484 tor.general:21173 ont.general:23754
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1453
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nai5t$fcg@ionews.io.org> mdfreed@io.org (Mark Freedman) writes:
>From: mdfreed@io.org (Mark Freedman)
>Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
>Date: 22 Apr 1995 05:27:25 -0400


>   I question its contribution to safety, at least as (ab)used in Ontario.
>I've seen some amazing evasive action (brake hard and swerve) taken when
>people spot the radar van hidden behind the bridge abutment.


>-- 
>   mdfreed@io.org   Mark Freedman (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

I guess you have heard that photoradar is thinking of taking pictures
from the front too now, and not just the rear..  They are looking for
different variety to see which will generate the most tickets.
 
If I'm driving down 401 East, and a van facing me, emitts that bright
light in my eyes, I will be tempted to side-swipe the van causing an
accident so that it will be written up in the papers, on the news,
and maybe the government will say "Uh, maybe we should take another
look at the safety issue".
 
How about pulling over to the shoulder when your car isn't working
<headlight problem> and plowing into the back of the photo radar van?
Soon enough, it will cause a big problem that the government will have
to take a look at the real situation and not all the green $$$$
photo radar represents.

---
E-Mail: bailiff@pz.timber.com <Shiloh Costa>
   WWW: http://www.io.org/~magic/samfox.html (Samantha Fox Home Page)
Usenet: alt.fan.samantha-fox

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:51:56 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA27660 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:51:56 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!pine.liii.com!iguana
From: iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D7GAp5.235@liii.com>
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Sender: news@liii.com (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rowan.liii.com
Organization: Long Island Information, Inc.  (516-248-5381)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370
 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 19:12:40 GMT
Lines: 65
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60575 tor.general:21206 ont.general:23774
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2570
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

: > I think the police should encourage wreckless driving.

: Pardon moi!
:  
: > Fines for speeding DO NOT work.  Most everyone on the road speeds to a 
: > certain reasonable extent.  It just gives them some incentive to be careful.

: Gee, sounds like that incentive you are talking about proves my point. 

: Besides most police ignore "reasonable" speeding (5-10mph). If they don't,
: even I agree they're being pricks. I never wrote anyone until they were
: past 10mph over, (unless I really had it out for them, and there was
: nothibng else
: I could do) 

Lots of people get tickets for 10mph over.  Some people even get for a 5mph
when they're from out of state and unlikely to contest it.

Hmm never heard of photo radar?   What purpose does that have other
than to make money ?

If these dis-incentives REALLY worked, lots of government budgets would be
extra-pinched without the extra revenue generated from speeding tickets.

There are much more effective ways to discourage speeding, but this way
is more profitable.  Why can't you accept it?

: How do you know where they are going, or what they are doing, are you psychic?

I assume if they had an emergency to respond to, they'd put their strobes on.

: I don't see how an Emergency Vehicle can make an "illegal turn," or speed
: for that matter. Emergency Vehicles are exempt from most traffic
: regulations, with the stipulation that the driver uses "reasonable care"
: not to endanger others.

I guess just being given a badge makes you above the law?  We're not talking
about an Emergency situation here.

: Sorry, but the fact is in this instance (I know you're going to hate this, but)
: police are just allowed to do things, you're not.  

In what instance?  I said in general.  You've never seen a cop run a light
without his flashing lights / sirens on ? 

: That's NOT what I was talking about. I very clearly stated people who are
: so oblivious to what is going on that they can't hear a siren that's 10
: feet behind them. Beleive me, there are lots of them out there. 

Yes, but you were responding to my post, and that is what I was talking 
about.

: > I suppose the public is just "dumb shits" to you.  Most of us just want 
: > to get from point A to B in a reasonable and timely manner, and the State 
: > wants to make an extra $100 here and there.

: No I don't think everyone's a dumbshit. But I know from personal
: experiance that 
: "dumb-shits" comprise a higher percentage of the general population than
: most people would think!

This I now believe.


: Jamie-Andrea Yanak

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:54:03 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA28055 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:54:02 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!can.net!pz.timber.com!bailiff
From: bailiff@pz.timber.com (Shiloh Costa)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 15:02:43
Organization: The Pleasure Zone
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <bailiff.76.000F0C09@pz.timber.com>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.can.net
Summary: BIG BROTHER will be watching all of us soon, they have started!
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60483 tor.general:21172 ont.general:23753
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1606
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

>And without photo radar or radar traps that's just about the only time
>that a police officer would stop you - when you're speeding excessively
>or speeding and driving dangerously.

>---
>Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com

I think that with the new photo radar, they should be fair and allow
the use of radar detectors.  Why is it that the government can use
any form of technology they like, but the public is still in the
stone ages?
 
I say we should push for radar detectors and other equipment to have
a fair shot against photo radar, and intersection cameras.
 
You did hear that after photo radar the government wants to install
cameras at most major intersections, which take a picture when the
light is yellow, just before it turns red?  This way they can mail
you "failing to stop for a traffic signal" ticket.
 
They have justified this, by saying "a lot of accidents are caused
at intersections, not only will we catch people who run red lights,
but we can also have pictures of accidents just before they happened".
 
I think the government is getting ahead of themselves a tad.  Sure
technological-policing has it advantages, but what about the disadvantages?
How about *** BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOUR EVERY MOVE ***?  It will
progressively get worse until one day we wake up one morning and
realize how much we have allowed our government to actually watch
us. (and store it on magnetic media, film, etc)

---
E-Mail: bailiff@pz.timber.com <Shiloh Costa>
   WWW: http://www.io.org/~magic/samfox.html (Samantha Fox Home Page)
Usenet: alt.fan.samantha-fox

From kevina  Sun Apr 23 22:54:46 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA28224 for kevina; Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:54:46 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!as312
From: as312@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (John W. Bienko)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D7Fx0z.4C0@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: as312@freenet3.carleton.ca (John W. Bienko)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 14:17:23 GMT
Lines: 12
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 603
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Photo radar is unquestionably a money grabber. The units are often positioned
in areas where the roads are designed for traffic that 
could travel safely at more than 100 k. The cars and the roads
are designed for speeds greater than 100k and thus tempt the
driver to follow the natural inclination to exceed the limit.
Then there are roads that are poorly designed and they too
are posted at the 100k limit.

--
Longing to be closer to to the sun, the wind and the sea!
Spiritually at: Latitude 21 degrees 19' 9" North.       _!_       
Longtitude 157 degrees 56' 31" West. Aloha!        ___o_(_)_o___

From kevina  Mon Apr 24 15:50:43 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA23443 for kevina; Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:50:43 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!uunet!citicorp.com!spcuna!news.columbia.edu!sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu!adr5
From: adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 24 Apr 1995 16:06:10 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <3ngi9i$piq@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <3mv32g$qan@ionews.io.org> <3n0r89$agb@news3.digex.net> <JamieYanak-2104952241360001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60696 tor.general:21262 ont.general:23808
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3121
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2104952241360001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>In article <3n0r89$agb@news3.digex.net>, bentley@access1.digex.net (Mark
>Bentley) wrote:
>
>> Lest anyone thing speed traps are anything but revenue generators, 
>> consider the use of unmarked cars by police.  If I'm in a cruisers, 
>> sitting on the side of the road in broad daylight, just about everybody 
>> going past is going to slow down toor near the limit.  Thus, dozens of 
>> cars per minute will be suddenly obeying the law.
>> 
>> If I'm hidden behind a bush in an unmarked Taurus, I will nail one driver 
>> every ten minutes or so, and create a roadside hazard in the process.
>
>I agree, that's not playing fair.

Not only is it not playing fair, it's unsafe.

>
>When I was a deputy, it was against State Law to use unmarked vehicles
>for "traffic enforcement." Vehicle had to have letters at least 6" high,
>prominently displayed and a *permanently* attached beacon. 
>
>It was also our department policy to have headlights on at all times, day
>or night, when stopped on the highway for running radar. 

I think your department is in the minority.  With few exceptions most of all
the cops who are working radar, that I've seen, are trying to hide as much
as possible.  I don't think they have figured out that a visible car is 
a deterent.  From a safety standpoint it is better to deter than to punish
after the fact.

>
>(we were very sporting, huh!) 
>

Yes, that was very sporting, but you still had the upper hand.

>Visibility was our objective in regards to traffic enforcement at that time. 

That's the way it should be.  

>
>But you know, I really don't think it contributed to any declines in the
>number of tickets you would write, when you followed these policies. Some
>people 
>are just that clueless.

Sad, but true.  These are the same clueless folks who sit in the left lane
doing 55 bolocing traffic.  I saw one of the clueless yesterday on my 
drive home yesterday.  I'm cruising along in the left lane, at a decent clip,
when a cop pulls out of a turnaround on my right.  He just jumps out without
stopping or slowing down much.  I immediately get off the gas and brake, 
releasing the brake when I know he can see my brake lights.  He proceeds to
get up to speed and approaches two cars in front of me from their blind
spot.  He then sits there for a moment.  The car in the left lane sees him,
after about a minute, and then slows down and pulls into the center lane.
The other car just keeps going about 10 over the limit.  The cop sits in the
blindspot and waits, and waits.  About 3 minutes later he cuts off the first
car that slowed down and pulls in behind the person not apying attention 
and pulls them over.  Clueless people should not be drving!  



-----------------                                                             
Alex     __O    '86 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo                                    
       _-\<,_   '87 Alfa Romeo Milano                                       
      (_)/ (_)  '88 Vitus/Dura-Ace                                          

From kevina  Mon Apr 24 15:52:17 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA23943 for kevina; Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:52:15 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!uunet!citicorp.com!spcuna!news.columbia.edu!sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu!adr5
From: adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 24 Apr 1995 15:43:36 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3nggv8$n2n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.n <9504180108285482@solar.org> <JamieYanak-2104952158480001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2197
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2104952158480001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>
>I don't advocate 55mph speed limit. I think 65mph would be more reasonable.

I think 65 is not reasonable given the nive interstates we have and the 
cars that are now being made.  An upper limit of 85 is more reasonable.

>
>However the thing that causes accidents on the highway is *differences* in 
>speeds *between* vehicles.  If everybody was doing 65mph there wouldn't be 
>a problem. 

I agree with you that large speed differences can cause problems.  BUT, they
are not insurmountable.  Enforcing some basic rules is all it takes.  Left lane
for passing only and no passing on the right.  Easy rules to follow and 
remember.

>
>However the speed limit is generally 55mph, and when people decide that 
>they would rather go faster, and begin changing lanes, and going around others,

If the people who want to go 55 stayed in the right lane, where they are 
supposed to be, then other people wouldn't be forced to work their way around
them.  Going 55 in the left lane is illegal, in some states at least.  So 
those people are not obeying the law!  They are being selfish.  


>
>So until the speed limit is 65mph, you are creating a hazard by exceeding it.
>

Not as much of a hazard as the guy who goes 55 in the left lane and won't move
no matter how nicely you signal him to.  If I am approaching a car going 
slower than me in the left lane I slow down and keep a safe distance and see
if he has any intentino of moving.  If he is not watching his mirrors and 
doesn't move, I approach his car and then back off again.  This is a nice
and polite way of asking him to move over.  If he still doesn't move then I 
will try flashing and if that fails then I will pass in the quickeset, safest
way possible.  Many times this means I am forced to pass in the right lane.

-----------------                                                             
Alex     __O    '86 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo                                    
       _-\<,_   '87 Alfa Romeo Milano                                       
      (_)/ (_)  '88 Vitus/Dura-Ace                                          

From kevina  Mon Apr 24 21:11:57 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id VAA05457 for kevina; Mon, 24 Apr 1995 21:11:56 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!access5!bentley
From: bentley@access5.digex.net (Mark Bentley)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving
Date: 24 Apr 1995 22:47:19 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1523
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Alex D Rodriguez (adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:
: >How do you know where they are going, or what they are doing, are you psychic?
: >I don't see how an Emergency Vehicle can make an "illegal turn," or speed
: >for that matter. Emergency Vehicles are exempt from most traffic
: >regulations, with the stipulation that the driver uses "reasonable care"
: >not to endanger others.

: If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
: they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
: vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
: so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
: the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.

At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.

This morning, as I walked from the parking garage to the New Carrollton 
Metro station, I noticed a Maryland state police officer driving along 
the bus-only lane.  He pulled to the curb, his wife/significant other 
gave him a quick kiss, and she walked into the train station along with 
the rest of us slobs.  A big deal?  No. Responding to an emergency?  Ha. 
Do I like it?  No.  Will such attitudes ever, ever change?  Nope.

It happens 100,00 times a day, from speeding, to illegal turns, to 
parking in the handicap spots; cops can do whatever they please on the 
highways.

Hmm. If I had impunity, maybe I would too...

mb

From kevina  Mon Apr 24 15:54:00 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA24495 for kevina; Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:53:58 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!feenix.metronet.com!uunet!citicorp.com!spcuna!news.columbia.edu!sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu!adr5
From: adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 24 Apr 1995 15:53:26 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60695 tor.general:21261 ont.general:23807
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2127
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>In article <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com>, iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig) wrote:
>

>> At least where I live, police officers are not only driving dangerously
>> when responding to calls.  They typically will make any traffic move when
>> they have room to do so -- including running red lights, making illegal
>> turns, and even speeding.  This does not include when they are actually
>> responding to calls.
>
>How do you know where they are going, or what they are doing, are you psychic?
>I don't see how an Emergency Vehicle can make an "illegal turn," or speed
>for that matter. Emergency Vehicles are exempt from most traffic
>regulations, with the stipulation that the driver uses "reasonable care"
>not to endanger others.

If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.


>
>> I suppose the public is just "dumb shits" to you.  Most of us just want 
>> to get from point A to B in a reasonable and timely manner, and the State 
>> wants to make an extra $100 here and there.
>
>No I don't think everyone's a dumbshit. But I know from personal
>experiance that 
>"dumb-shits" comprise a higher percentage of the general population than
>most people would think!


I think "dumbshits" on a power trip compromise an even larger percentage of
the police population than you want to admit to.  And that percentage is 
a couple of order  of amgnitude larger than the general population.



-----------------                                                             
Alex     __O    '86 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo                                    
       _-\<,_   '87 Alfa Romeo Milano                                       
      (_)/ (_)  '88 Vitus/Dura-Ace                                          

From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:33:45 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA13570 for kevina; Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:33:43 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.erinet.com!uunet!cherokee!sanews.uswc.uswest.com!usenet
From: jaander@uswest.com (John Anderlie)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Liv
Date: 25 Apr 1995 03:11:22 GMT
Organization: The Unconfigured xvnews people
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3nhp8q$ojp@sanews.uswc.uswest.com>
References: <D7AHpz.BxL@isgtec.com>
Reply-To: jaander@uswest.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.119.93.209
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:60855 tor.general:21334 ont.general:23878
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 631
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rob,

Sorry, but I think you need to step up your research regarding when and how cops are dismissed
from their departments.  In my department, I was informed of a cop who recently lost his job for
having 2 accidents (non-fatal) within a relatively short period of time.  I am also told that a
cop will lose his/her job for running red lights and stop signs unless BOTH flashing lights AND
siren are on.  New hires are especially vulnerable to being dismissed.  Much depends on the 
agency you work for and whether the chief and public will tolerate unprofessional conduct.
Check it out.

John

My views are mine and mine alone.



From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:34:29 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA13836 for kevina; Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:34:28 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!pine.liii.com!iguana
From: iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com>
Sender: news@liii.com (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rowan.liii.com
Organization: Long Island Information, Inc.  (516-248-5381)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 01:39:26 GMT
Lines: 21
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1177
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mark Bentley (bentley@access5.digex.net) wrote:

: : If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
: : they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
: : vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
: : so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
: : the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.

: At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
: some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.

Well, we all knew this.  But it's disgusting when police  -- 
well, at least this one --patronize us about the "dangers" of our driving 
65 in a 55 (as soon as you exceed the speed limit, your car bursts into
flames because of wind resistance, thus causing billions of deaths each year)
, while they flaunt ALL traffic/driving laws as casually as easily as they
down giant mugs of coffee, and justify it by saying they have "Specialized
driving training".  This is just crap.

Hell, I would speed too, if I could get away with it, but I wouldn't be
as sanctimonious about being a tax collector with a glock.

From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:35:07 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA13995 for kevina; Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:35:06 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.tamu.edu!vms2.tamu.edu!msw5513
From: msw5513@vms2.tamu.edu (Gumby)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 24 Apr 1995 22:50 CDT
Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <24APR199522501602@vms2.tamu.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vms2.tamu.edu
News-Software: OpenVMS  VNEWS 1.41    
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1318
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig) writes...

>But it's disgusting when police  -- 
>well, at least this one --patronize us about the "dangers" of our driving 
>65 in a 55 (as soon as you exceed the speed limit, your car bursts into
>flames because of wind resistance, thus causing billions of deaths each year)
>, while they flaunt ALL traffic/driving laws as casually as easily as they
>down giant mugs of coffee, and justify it by saying they have "Specialized
>driving training".  This is just crap.

Come on, give them a break.  Aside from the Untouchables, just about every
cop broke the law they were supposed to be enforcing.  They are human.  The
inhuman scum is in the seats of the legislature dictating the duties of the
cops and relegeting them to tax collectors.  I know of no cops who want to
be tax collectors, but it is a way to check for true crimes (the guy wanted
for the OK City bombing was picked up during a routine traffic stop), and
it lets the cities get income with out the spineless inhabitants of city
hall having to raise taxes.

>Hell, I would speed too, if I could get away with it, but I wouldn't be
>as sanctimonious about being a tax collector with a glock.

I speed all the time and have gotten away with it.  What makes you think
the cops are the only ones with Glocks? :-)

Marc

From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:36:08 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA14300 for kevina; Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:36:07 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!uunet!news3.digex.net!access5!bentley
From: bentley@access5.digex.net (Mark Bentley)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 25 Apr 1995 18:21:14 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3njeiq$7a2@news3.digex.net>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 834
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

David B. Feig (iguana@pine.liii.com) wrote:
: Hell, I would speed too, if I could get away with it, but I wouldn't be
: as sanctimonious about being a tax collector with a glock.

Agreed.

My 'attacks' on LEO's and their speed traps are sometimes intereperted as 
disrepect for those who chose this fine profession.  Nothing can be 
further from the truth.  It's a difficult job that doesn't pay very well, 
and one I would not have the stomach for.  Further, I recognize that any 
LEO foolish enough to admit that speeding tickets are issued for no other 
reason than revenue generation would have little future.  My only gripe 
is with those who preach to us, and repeat the basic horseshit about 
safety as if we're all zombies.

In other words, keep your mouth shut and I will assume respect, officer 
friendly.

Regards,
Bentley

From kevina  Tue Apr 25 22:37:09 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA14569 for kevina; Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:37:07 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!news3.digex.net!access5!bentley
From: bentley@access5.digex.net (Mark Bentley)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving
Date: 24 Apr 1995 22:39:10 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, USA
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3nh9ae$mjf@news3.digex.net>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <1995Apr1.181444.1439@Princeton.EDU> <kschell.11.2F882730@hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org>,<3mgp9p$4en@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3mhnt9$dcd@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <JamieYanak-1404952123370
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1403
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

 <bailiff.76.000F0C09@pz.timber.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: 

Shiloh Costa (bailiff@pz.timber.com) wrote:
: I think that with the new photo radar, they should be fair and allow
: the use of radar detectors.  Why is it that the government can use
: any form of technology they like, but the public is still in the
: stone ages?

As far as I know, only a few states and the Distict of Columbia outlaw 
radar detectors.  Are they completely illegal in Canada?

: light is yellow, just before it turns red?  This way they can mail
: you "failing to stop for a traffic signal" ticket.
:  
: They have justified this, by saying "a lot of accidents are caused
: at intersections, not only will we catch people who run red lights,
: but we can also have pictures of accidents just before they happened".

Actually I don't have a problem with the interesection cameras.  To hell 
with photo radar, which merely punishes people for travelling the same 
speed as everyone else.  But, to my knowlege, running a red light does no 
one any good and has tremendous potential harm.  From where I hail 
(Maryland) it is routine for three-five cars to pass through the average 
red (not yellow) light.

As for the recording of where you are, well, this is the electronic age, 
and if you don't run the light you won't get recorded! :)

mb
(follow-ups trimmed)

From kevina  Wed Apr 26 14:43:50 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id OAA28569 for kevina; Wed, 26 Apr 1995 14:43:49 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnet2.netnet.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!uunet!newshost.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.columbia.edu!aloha.cc.columbia.edu!adr5
From: adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 25 Apr 1995 15:21:08 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3nj414$4l7@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aloha.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1672
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>,
Mark Bentley <bentley@access5.digex.net> wrote:
>At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
>some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.

You can deal with it or you can do something about it.  Cops work for you,
the tax payer, and so you can complain about them.  Let their bosses know that
they are doing something you think is inapproriate.

>
>This morning, as I walked from the parking garage to the New Carrollton 
>Metro station, I noticed a Maryland state police officer driving along 
>the bus-only lane.  He pulled to the curb, his wife/significant other 
>gave him a quick kiss, and she walked into the train station along with 
>the rest of us slobs.  A big deal?  No. Responding to an emergency?  Ha. 
>Do I like it?  No.  Will such attitudes ever, ever change?  Nope.


If you don't do anything about it, things won't change.  Take down the police
car number, the time of day, and get a good look at the cop.  Then go down to
the local police department and ask to speak the person in charge.  Tell them
the story and what you saw the police man doing wrong.  Explain that this 
reflects poorly on all cops.  Be polite and ask that they call you back and
let you know what was done.  If nothing gets done, then it is time to work 
your way up the political ladder.




-----------------                                                             
Alex     __O    '86 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo                                    
       _-\<,_   '87 Alfa Romeo Milano                                       
      (_)/ (_)  '88 Vitus/Dura-Ace                                          

From kevina  Thu Apr 27 19:24:09 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id TAA23857 for kevina; Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:24:08 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Path: news.clark.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!rochester!udel!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!perkin-elmer!bajoriap
From: BajoriAP@Perkin-Elmer.com (Andrew P. Bajorinas)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <3no618$gbg_001@bajoriap.perkin-elmer.com>
Sender: news@Perkin-Elmer.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: bajoriap.perkin-elmer.com
Organization: Perkin-Elmer Corp.
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 14:28:25 GMT
Lines: 39
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1539
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net>,
   bentley@access5.digex.net (Mark Bentley) wrote:

]
]At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
]some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.
]
]This morning, as I walked from the parking garage to the New Carrollton 
]Metro station, I noticed a Maryland state police officer driving along 
]the bus-only lane.  He pulled to the curb, his wife/significant other 
]gave him a quick kiss, and she walked into the train station along with 
]the rest of us slobs.  A big deal?  No. Responding to an emergency?  Ha. 
]Do I like it?  No.  Will such attitudes ever, ever change?  Nope.
]
]It happens 100,00 times a day, from speeding, to illegal turns, to 
]parking in the handicap spots; cops can do whatever they please on the 
]highways.
]
]Hmm. If I had impunity, maybe I would too...
]
]mb


All this crap right in the faces of "regular people" and then cops wonder why the public 
doesn't always support them. Geez. 

Maybe police would be better respected and trusted if they deserved it! What a concept!






 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Andrew P. Bajorinas                          BajoriAP@Perkin-Elmer.com |
| -----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| The above opinions are my own.          |      I will never let my cat |
| My employer thinks I am working. 8^)    |     use my net access again! |
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

From kevina  Thu Apr 27 19:25:12 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id TAA24079 for kevina; Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:25:11 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 18:01:54 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61225 tor.general:21470 ont.general:24006
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2252
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:
 
> If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
> they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
> vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
> so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
> the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.

First of all it just doesn't seem to be sinking in for you: These things are 
NOT ILLEGAL for an emergency vehicle. Second of all: Your spelling is starting 
to deteriorate again:)

There are plenty of reasons cops have for exceeding speed limits, and short-
cutting traffic regulations w/out having lights & sirens on, for example:

-Responding to Burglary Alarms & Bank Alarms: Lest the bad guys hear you
 coming (which can create a situation which not only endangers the officer, 
 but also the public, in a bank situation.)

-Responding to just about any other type of call where stealth is of 
 importance (As in most things, the element of surprise is important in police
 work)

-Trying to catch up to vehicles that may be kinda far away, w/out alerting
them    
 (if you think they might run, which can be even more dangerous if you give them
 the opportunity)

In short: I stick w/my original statement; You can't be sure what the
police are actually doing when they *appear* to you to be screwing around,
and driving unsafely. The vast majority of the time, they are responding
to an incident . 

> I think "dumbshits" on a power trip compromise an even larger percentage of
> the police population than you want to admit to.  And that percentage is 
> a couple of order  of amgnitude larger than the general population.

Well, I think this is YOUR basic problem to begin with. You just have an 
animus against cops.

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Fri Apr 28 18:17:18 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA25580 for kevina; Fri, 28 Apr 1995 18:17:18 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:21:38 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2704951921380001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <3nj414$4l7@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1336
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nj414$4l7@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:

> Then go down to the local police department and ask to speak the person
in     
> charge. Explain that this reflects poorly on all cops.

Not that I condone this sort of behavior, but that is a sure fire way in 
most police departments, to get your name on "the list." 

Every department has one, it's reserved for continual trouble makers, 
excessively annoying journalist's (who write or televise those cops
playing golf on duty stories), and of course people who make an attempt to
"police the police."

As I said, I don't condone it, don't like it myself, and am ashamed to admit
it, but it does exist.

Better advice: Anonymosly complain, by instead going directly to a city
council member or the like, *or better yet* call up one of those nosey
local TV Newspeople (if the infraction is serious enough). After all they
get *paid*
to have cops hate their guts, and have it out for them:)

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Fri Apr 28 18:19:11 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA26199 for kevina; Fri, 28 Apr 1995 18:19:10 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news2.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!spcuna!news.columbia.edu!aloha.cc.columbia.edu!adr5
From: adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 28 Apr 1995 14:07:03 GMT
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 91
Message-ID: <3nqsq7$84p@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aloha.cc.columbia.edu
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61361 tor.general:21504 ont.general:24054
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 4389
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>In article <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
>adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:
> 
>> If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
>> they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
>> vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
>> so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
>> the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.
>
>First of all it just doesn't seem to be sinking in for you: These things are 
>NOT ILLEGAL for an emergency vehicle. Second of all: Your spelling is starting 
>to deteriorate again:)

It's not my spelling, it's my typing.  Really. :)  


>
>There are plenty of reasons cops have for exceeding speed limits, and short-
>cutting traffic regulations w/out having lights & sirens on, for example:
>
>-Responding to Burglary Alarms & Bank Alarms: Lest the bad guys hear you
> coming (which can create a situation which not only endangers the officer, 
> but also the public, in a bank situation.)

In this scenario run with lights only.  Shut your sirens off.  I rather have
someone run off with my property than have a cop hurt someone.  When you are
a block away, after you have gone through all intersections, shut the lights
off.  No one is going to bitch about that.  

>
>-Responding to just about any other type of call where stealth is of 
> importance (As in most things, the element of surprise is important in police
> work)

Stealth is important.  Especially at night trying to catch the guy going 10mph
over the limit on an empty highway.  Causing a pileup because you didn't
have your lights on doens't get you there any faster or help your stealthness.


>
>-Trying to catch up to vehicles that may be kinda far away, w/out alerting
>them    
> (if you think they might run, which can be even more dangerous if you give them
> the opportunity)

I think the big light bar on the roof does a good job of giving you away.
Anyone who misses the light bar during the day is not going to see the lights
flashing either.

>
>In short: I stick w/my original statement; You can't be sure what the
>police are actually doing when they *appear* to you to be screwing around,
>and driving unsafely. The vast majority of the time, they are responding
>to an incident . 

I still don't take your word for it.  It comes down to either believing
what I have seen, or what you say.  I'm sure there have been a couple of times
when I did misinterpret a cops actions, but most of the time I have seen 
that the cops were just on routine patrol.  If they had been in a hurry they
would not have waited for the pedestrians to all cross the street before they
ran the light.  In the city, that is what I see them do most of the time.


>
>> I think "dumbshits" on a power trip compromise an even larger percentage of
>> the police population than you want to admit to.  And that percentage is 
>> a couple of order  of amgnitude larger than the general population.
>
>Well, I think this is YOUR basic problem to begin with. You just have an 
>animus against cops.


I generally have no problem with cops.  It's a dirty job I wouldn't want to
do.  I respect them for that.  I just don't like the attitude alot of them
carry.  This past weekend I got another example of a cop with an attitude.
I was in Atlantic City and they had some event on the boardwalk that cause
a huge crowd where you had to squeeze through to get by.  A young man is 
slipping through with his box in the air playing fairly loud.  Along comes
a cop and from 3 feet away yells an obscenity at him and tells him to "shut
that piece of shit off".  That was completely uncalled for and unecessary.
I have no animus against cops in general, it is the many specific instances
I have seen that lead me to dislike some of them.  Also the "dumshit" is
your phrase not mine.  I don't make it a practice to use such language.


-----------------                                                             
Alex     __O    '86 Dodge Omni GLH Turbo                                    
       _-\<,_   '87 Alfa Romeo Milano                                       
      (_)/ (_)  '88 Vitus/Dura-Ace                                          

From kevina  Fri Apr 28 18:19:42 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA26432 for kevina; Fri, 28 Apr 1995 18:19:41 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:08:15 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2704951908150001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <24APR199522501602@vms2.tamu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2239
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <24APR199522501602@vms2.tamu.edu>, msw5513@vms2.tamu.edu
(Gumby) wrote:
 
> Come on, give them a break.  Aside from the Untouchables, just about every
> cop broke the law they were supposed to be enforcing.  They are human.

It's good to see that someone is sticking up for me around here,
well, sort of...I think:)

> I speed all the time and have gotten away with it.

Yes, but when you finally do get a ticket, will you look at it as fair
considering all the times you didn't get caught? Even if you think the
ticket was wrong?

> What makes you think
> the cops are the only ones with Glocks? :-)

Good point. Another reason excuses for speeding don't always go over/are
excepted politely. Old saying: "No such thing as a routine traffic stop."
You never know who it is your stopping for speeding.

At times it can have a definate affect upon your adrenaline levels. Like
when your running traffic at 3:00am, all the other cars in your zone are
tied up on calls (meaning no back-up for you darling!), and a store was
just robbed 15 minutes ago. When all of a sudden, a car comes flying down
the road past you at 75mph, with no plates on it. *wonderfull* You catch
up, get it stopped, and have the honor of walking that (very long 20 feet)
up to their window (all the time wondering when someone may pop up from
the back seat, and point something at you *NOT THEIR FINGER EITHER*)... 

Only to discover its some fool, who's temporary tag fell down from the
back window. 

Of course, he has no idea why you don't beleive him/want to discuss it,
when he says "Uhh, really ossifer, I have to go to the bathroom, I didn't
realize I was going so fast, Are you sure your radar guns right, I was
just blowing the carbon out of my engine, It was that other car you must
have got us confused, I just came from the car-wash and was trying to dry
it off,...*Or, would you beieve...*
etc,etc, etc...

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Fri Apr 28 18:21:42 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA27066 for kevina; Fri, 28 Apr 1995 18:21:41 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!wariat.org!en.com!news.erinet.com!uunet!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.tamu.edu!vms1.tamu.edu!msw5513
From: msw5513@vms1.tamu.edu (Gumby)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 28 Apr 1995 02:43 CDT
Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <28APR199502434461@vms1.tamu.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2704951908150001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: vms1.tamu.edu
News-Software: OpenVMS  VNEWS 1.41    
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3073
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak) writes...
>msw5513@vms2.tamu.edu (Gumby) wrote:

>> Come on, give them a break.  Aside from the Untouchables, just about every
>> cop broke the law they were supposed to be enforcing.  They are human.

>It's good to see that someone is sticking up for me around here,
>well, sort of...I think:)

I can't give outright compliments to anyone I don't know.  Cops are people.
No people are perfect.  Cops are just trying to do a job.  They can't help
if someone disagrees with a law they are enforcing, they still have to do
their job.  (is that better?  :-)

>> I speed all the time and have gotten away with it.

>Yes, but when you finally do get a ticket, will you look at it as fair
>considering all the times you didn't get caught? Even if you think the
>ticket was wrong?

Oh, I keep it at a speed where it won't go on my record.  I have been stopped
enough, but I have been lucky not to get a ticket.  (it is amazing how nice
cops can be if you tell them the truth and show a little respect :-)

>> What makes you think
>> the cops are the only ones with Glocks? :-)

>Good point. Another reason excuses for speeding don't always go over/are
>excepted politely. Old saying: "No such thing as a routine traffic stop."
>You never know who it is your stopping for speeding.

I've packed a firearm illegally.  I chose my law violations carefully, and
I always know exactly when I am violating a law.  I am aware of the
consequences, and I am prepared to face them.  (don't do the crime if you
can't do the time :-)

>At times it can have a definate affect upon your adrenaline levels. Like
>when your running traffic at 3:00am, all the other cars in your zone are
>tied up on calls (meaning no back-up for you darling!), and a store was
>just robbed 15 minutes ago. When all of a sudden, a car comes flying down
>the road past you at 75mph, with no plates on it. *wonderfull* You catch
>up, get it stopped, and have the honor of walking that (very long 20 feet)
>up to their window (all the time wondering when someone may pop up from
>the back seat, and point something at you *NOT THEIR FINGER EITHER*)... 

I'd love to have a job where I am supposed to hunt down people who have or
are committing a violent crime.  Sneaking up on an armed person, high on
crack, and yelling "FREEZE!!"  Ooh, how I envy you.

>Only to discover its some fool, who's temporary tag fell down from the
>back window. 

D'oh!

>Of course, he has no idea why you don't beleive him/want to discuss it,
>when he says "Uhh, really ossifer, I have to go to the bathroom, I didn't
>realize I was going so fast, Are you sure your radar guns right, I was
>just blowing the carbon out of my engine, It was that other car you must
>have got us confused, I just came from the car-wash and was trying to dry
>it off,...*Or, would you beieve...*
>etc,etc, etc...

Gee, I always get out of mine.  "Yes officer, I was speeding.  I am on my
way home.  Yes, Dallas, as it says on the license.  Yes sir, I'll keep it
under 65.  Thank you."  And a warning for 76 was issued.

Marc

From kevina  Fri Apr 28 18:23:57 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA27673 for kevina; Fri, 28 Apr 1995 18:23:57 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!olivea!decwrl!pagesat.net!news.erinet.com!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:59:23 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2704951959230001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2553
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 



 Mark Bentley (bentley@access5.digex.net) wrote:

> : At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
> : some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.

I didn't say ABOVE the law. I said that while on duty they are EXEMPTED.
There's a BIG difference. Exempted is legislated permission. Above is something
else entirely, that implies were geting away with something, we're not 

In article <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com>, iguana@pine.liii.com <David B. Feig> wrote:
> 
> Well, we all knew this.  But it's disgusting when police  -- 
> well, at least this one --patronize us about the "dangers" of our driving 
> 65 in a 55

I'm sorry if I sounded patronizing, It wasn't meant that way, not that I'm
apologizing for what I said, just the way I said it. My attempt was to 
show that a simple thing like speeding can cause tragedies (like the one's
I've personally suffered) that are not readily considered by those
committing such a casual, and socially accepted act as speeding. Also,
after sufferring these tragedies, I was not entirely amused with the
*attitude* of some of the folks here towards speeding or police. In fact I
was offended.

>(as soon as you exceed the speed limit, your car bursts into
> flames because of wind resistance, thus causing billions of deaths each year)

*Cute*   *giggle*

> , while they flaunt ALL traffic/driving laws as casually as easily as they
> down giant mugs of coffee,

I've never understood the publics pre-occupation, and source of amusement
concerning cops, coffee, and of course donuts! Is it some sort of jealousy
concerning the fact that donuts are the best food on earth, coffee is the
nectar of the gods, and cops generally get them both for free? (Burger
King too!) *grin*   Besides, what the hell else is open at 4:00 am!:)

> and justify it by saying they have "Specialized
> driving training".  This is just crap.

It's not "crap," it's the truth.
 
> Hell, I would speed too, if I could get away with it, but I wouldn't be
> as sanctimonious about being a tax collector with a glock.

I didn't mean (nor do I think) I came off as "sanctimonious." And I have yet
to hear of a cop who as ever shot someone for not paying a traffic ticket.

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Sat Apr 29 17:41:06 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id RAA26026 for kevina; Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:41:06 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!ip029.phx.primenet.com!gribble
From: gribble@primenet.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 13:53:38 MST
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <gribble.461.0170F154@primenet.com>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nqsq7$84p@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip029.phx.primenet.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61441 tor.general:21513 ont.general:24067
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 4936
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nqsq7$84p@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) writes:
>From: adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
>Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
>Date: 28 Apr 1995 14:07:03 GMT

>In article <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org>,
>Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>>In article <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
>>adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:
>> 
>>> If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
>>> they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
>>> vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
>>> so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
>>> the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.
>>
>>First of all it just doesn't seem to be sinking in for you: These things are 
>>NOT ILLEGAL for an emergency vehicle. Second of all: Your spelling is starting 
>>to deteriorate again:)

>It's not my spelling, it's my typing.  Really. :)  


>>
>>There are plenty of reasons cops have for exceeding speed limits, and short-
>>cutting traffic regulations w/out having lights & sirens on, for example:
>>
>>-Responding to Burglary Alarms & Bank Alarms: Lest the bad guys hear you
>> coming (which can create a situation which not only endangers the officer, 
>> but also the public, in a bank situation.)

>In this scenario run with lights only.  Shut your sirens off.  I rather have
>someone run off with my property than have a cop hurt someone.  When you are
>a block away, after you have gone through all intersections, shut the lights
>off.  No one is going to bitch about that.  

>>
>>-Responding to just about any other type of call where stealth is of 
>> importance (As in most things, the element of surprise is important in police
>> work)

>Stealth is important.  Especially at night trying to catch the guy going 10mph
>over the limit on an empty highway.  Causing a pileup because you didn't
>have your lights on doens't get you there any faster or help your stealthness.


>>
>>-Trying to catch up to vehicles that may be kinda far away, w/out alerting
>>them    
>> (if you think they might run, which can be even more dangerous if you give
>them
>> the opportunity)

>I think the big light bar on the roof does a good job of giving you away.
>Anyone who misses the light bar during the day is not going to see the lights
>flashing either.

>>
>>In short: I stick w/my original statement; You can't be sure what the
>>police are actually doing when they *appear* to you to be screwing around,
>>and driving unsafely. The vast majority of the time, they are responding
>>to an incident . 

>I still don't take your word for it.  It comes down to either believing
>what I have seen, or what you say.  I'm sure there have been a couple of times
>when I did misinterpret a cops actions, but most of the time I have seen 
>that the cops were just on routine patrol.  If they had been in a hurry they
>would not have waited for the pedestrians to all cross the street before they
>ran the light.  In the city, that is what I see them do most of the time.


>>
>>> I think "dumbshits" on a power trip compromise an even larger percentage of
>>> the police population than you want to admit to.  And that percentage is 
>>> a couple of order  of amgnitude larger than the general population.
>>
>>Well, I think this is YOUR basic problem to begin with. You just have an 
>>animus against cops.


>I generally have no problem with cops.  It's a dirty job I wouldn't want to
>do.  I respect them for that.  I just don't like the attitude alot of them
>carry.  This past weekend I got another example of a cop with an attitude.
>I was in Atlantic City and they had some event on the boardwalk that cause
>a huge crowd where you had to squeeze through to get by.  A young man is 
>slipping through with his box in the air playing fairly loud.  Along comes
>a cop and from 3 feet away yells an obscenity at him and tells him to "shut
>that piece of shit off".  That was completely uncalled for and unecessary.
>I have no animus against cops in general, it is the many specific instances
>I have seen that lead me to dislike some of them.  Also the "dumshit" is
>your phrase not mine.  I don't make it a practice to use such language.


In Arizona the law is pretty clear.  Police vehicles are not required to 
display any lights even when responding to emergencies but they ARE required 
to use a siren, bell, or whistle WHEN reasonably necessary.  So there's an out 
for that too.  They may ONLY 'break' the law when responding to an emergency 
or when in pursuit of a known or suspected violator.   None of those 
exceptions relieves them of the responsiblity to drive with due regard of the 
safety of all persons and they are not protected from reckless acts.



From kevina  Sat Apr 29 17:42:26 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id RAA26432 for kevina; Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:42:25 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!rahul.net!a2i!olivea!decwrl!pagesat.net!news.erinet.com!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 23:12:24 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-2804952312240001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2704951908150001@database-mac.oai.org> <28APR199502434461@vms1.tamu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1760
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <28APR199502434461@vms1.tamu.edu>, msw5513@vms1.tamu.edu
(Gumby) wrote:

> I can't give outright compliments to anyone I don't know.  Cops are people.
> No people are perfect.  Cops are just trying to do a job.  They can't help
> if someone disagrees with a law they are enforcing, they still have to do
> their job.  (is that better?  :-)

Yes, quite satisfactory...*big smile*

> I've packed a firearm illegally.  I chose my law violations carefully, and
> I always know exactly when I am violating a law.  I am aware of the
> consequences, and I am prepared to face them.  (don't do the crime if you
> can't do the time :-)

I didn't realize it was against the law to carry a gun in Texas...
                     
               *Jamie's patented dumb blonde look* 

In fact, I always kinda figured it was against the law to be caught w/out
one...*giggle*

You cowboy types are so...,so..., macho. (yeah that's it!) *swooning*...NOT! 
 
> I'd love to have a job where I am supposed to hunt down people who have or
> are committing a violent crime.  Sneaking up on an armed person, high on
> crack, and yelling "FREEZE!!"  Ooh, how I envy you.

Well, like they say..."Everything's BIGGER in Texas." It's only logical 
that include the number of people in need of therapy.

But from my personal experience with Texas men, I've always wondered why
it doesn't include...*blushing*....well, you know what I mean:)

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Sat Apr 29 17:43:48 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id RAA26886 for kevina; Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:43:48 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.bnl.gov!grmnntp.grump.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!swrinde!pipex!uunet!spcuna!citicorp.com!devere
From: devere@spruce.citicorp.com (Al DeVere)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 28 Apr 1995 11:34:48 GMT
Organization: Citicorp - CGIN
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <3nqjso$qms@spruce.citicorp.com>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2704951959230001@database-mac.oai.org>
Reply-To: al.devere@citicorp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ss-b-md38.grn.citicorp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3274
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jamie Yanak (JamieYanak@oai.org) wrote:


:  Mark Bentley (bentley@access5.digex.net) wrote:

: > : At least or 'freind' with the badge has admitted what I've suspected for 
: > : some time:  Cops are above the law.  Deal with it.

: I didn't say ABOVE the law. I said that while on duty they are EXEMPTED.
: There's a BIG difference. Exempted is legislated permission. Above is something
: else entirely, that implies were geting away with something, we're not 

BULLSHIT!  I'll stand by a his statement.  Cops know that they are
above the law.  If a cop (or his SO) gets stopped for speeding, etc they
will be let off because they are a COP or (COP's SO).  I've seen it, I've
heard MANY cops talk about it, and I was let off also.  Don't tell me it 
doesn't happen.  Also, around here COPs are encouraged to drive their
marked police vehicles off duty.  Every day I see a few cops out
of uniform and they are speeding, etc.  Don't tell me their going to calls,
I've followed them for miles (at 75mph) and they are NOT going to calls.


: > and justify it by saying they have "Specialized
: > driving training".  This is just crap.

: It's not "crap," it's the truth.

No, it's crap.  Most of their "Specialized driving training" is
nothing more than a 2-5 hour classroom lecture and some time in a parking
lot/closed street driving around cones.  Some departments actually go
to *real* schools but most don't.  By that same thought, would let me
off because I've been to the "police" driving school, 3 ambulance
driving schools, 1 motorcycle driving school, and a race driving school.

I didn't think you would.....

:  
: > Hell, I would speed too, if I could get away with it, but I wouldn't be
: > as sanctimonious about being a tax collector with a glock.

: I didn't mean (nor do I think) I came off as "sanctimonious." And I have yet
: to hear of a cop who as ever shot someone for not paying a traffic ticket.

I repeat, I don't have a problem with cops who are fighting real crime.  I
would like to see cops spend more time chasing crooks, patroling 
local streets, etc and not sit all day writing speeding tickets.  I would
also like to see the cops who do write speeding tickets to spend some
time writing tickets for dangerous driving (changing lanes 3 @ a time, w/o
signals, running red lights, etc).  I respect the people who put their
life in danger every day, for very little money, with no respect from the
public.  What I see as a MAJOR problem is that a majority of the population
speeds, and therefore looks upon the police, not as protectors/etc, but
as the enemy.  The 55/65 mph speed limit on highways is another
prohibition problem.  Let the population make the determination for laws
not the government making laws to "protect us from ourselves."  It the
speed limits were reasonable and everyone (90%) followed them, then the
police would have more time to spend on other duties, and would return
to be the protectors/public servants/etc that the population should see
them as.


--
-Al

Al DeVere NREMT-P |     Email to: Al.DeVere@citicorp.com 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Insert std.disclaimer                       DoD# medic
 
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
-Dean Martin

From kevina  Sun Apr 30 11:40:19 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id LAA10063 for kevina; Sun, 30 Apr 1995 11:40:18 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Path: news.clark.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert
From: robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Liv
Message-ID: <D7pprK.4J1@isgtec.com>
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Sender: news@isgtec.com (News Owner)
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <D7AHpz.BxL@isgtec.com> <3nhp8q$ojp@sanews.uswc.uswest.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 21:16:31 GMT
Lines: 31
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61611 tor.general:21582 ont.general:24122
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1343
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Anderlie (jaander@uswest.com) wrote:
# Rob,

You removed all trace of the article you are replying to but since the
References line says isgtec.com,  I'll assume I'm the "Rob" here :-)

# Sorry, but I think you need to step up your research regarding when and
# how cops are dismissed from their departments.

I doubt it,  I personally know a number of police officers from a number
of different police departments,  including my brother and an uncle ...

# In my department, I was
# informed of a cop who recently lost his job for having 2 accidents
# (non-fatal) within a relatively short period of time.  I am also told
# that a cop will lose his/her job for running red lights and stop signs
# unless BOTH flashing lights AND siren are on.

And a number of people complain ...  Yes, police officers will be
displined and fired - but only if the make a public spectacle of
doing something clueless - like getting into accidents.

Why are a couple police officers in the Metro area who had their firearms
discharge when they "stumbled" - killing black youths - still on the
force.  Why was a Quebec police officer who "accidently" fired 30 rounds
from his submachine gun through a hotel door killing two construction
workers inside never charged with murder?

Rob.
--
Robert A. Osborne   ...!uunet.ca!isgtec!robert or robert@isgtec.com

From kevina  Sun Apr 30 22:50:01 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id WAA23848 for kevina; Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:50:01 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.uoregon.edu!cs.uoregon.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!spcuna!citicorp.com!devere
From: devere@spruce.citicorp.com (Al DeVere)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Followup-To: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Date: 28 Apr 1995 12:11:19 GMT
Organization: Citicorp - CGIN
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <3nqm17$qms@spruce.citicorp.com>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org>
Reply-To: al.devere@citicorp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ss-b-md38.grn.citicorp.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61717 tor.general:21633 ont.general:24172
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3883
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jamie Yanak (JamieYanak@oai.org) wrote:
: In article <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
: adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:
:  
: > If an emergency vehicle is not responding to an emergency, lights on, then 
: > they have to obey the same rules everyone else does.  That's how an emergency
: > vehicle can do all thoes illegal things.  Your response explains why we see
: > so many cops breaking the law.  You either don't know, or don'twant to know,
: > the law.  The law only applies when it is convenient for you.

: First of all it just doesn't seem to be sinking in for you: These things are 
: NOT ILLEGAL for an emergency vehicle. Second of all: Your spelling is starting 
: to deteriorate again:)

Then you don't understand the laws you are sent to enforce.  VA and MD
traffic regulations (and 99% of other states) state:  An emergency
vehicle is not an emergency vehicle until it's lights and sirens are in 
the ON position.  Now I agree that there are times when you don't want
them on, but when responding to the "bank" you only turn them off 2-3
blocks from the scene, not 2-3 miles.  You also are expected to use the
lights (no siren) as close as possible w/o notifying the suspects that
your coming.

: There are plenty of reasons cops have for exceeding speed limits, and short-
: cutting traffic regulations w/out having lights & sirens on, for example:

: -Responding to Burglary Alarms & Bank Alarms: Lest the bad guys hear you
:  coming (which can create a situation which not only endangers the officer, 
:  but also the public, in a bank situation.)

: -Responding to just about any other type of call where stealth is of 
:  importance (As in most things, the element of surprise is important in police
:  work)

: -Trying to catch up to vehicles that may be kinda far away, w/out alerting
: them    
:  (if you think they might run, which can be even more dangerous if you give them
:  the opportunity)

: In short: I stick w/my original statement; You can't be sure what the
: police are actually doing when they *appear* to you to be screwing around,
: and driving unsafely. The vast majority of the time, they are responding
: to an incident . 


No sometimes they are responding to an incident, most times they are 
not.

: > I think "dumbshits" on a power trip compromise an even larger percentage of
: > the police population than you want to admit to.  And that percentage is 
: > a couple of order  of amgnitude larger than the general population.

: Well, I think this is YOUR basic problem to begin with. You just have an 
: animus against cops.

No, a majority of cops think of the public as the enemy and are also
on a power trip.  COPs should not be above the law, they should set the
example.  As I said in an earlier post, the police are poorly thought
of by the general public because they are seen enforcing laws that the
public does not want and that they don't follow.  I think YOUR problem
is like many cops:  You went to school for 1-3 months and now think that
your beter than everyone else, and above the law.  Well, your wrong.

btw, I've not contested any of the traffic tickets I have received.  I
just pay them and then pay my insurance "adjustment."  I don't hate
cops because they are doing their job, I hate the "traffic cops" because
of they way some treat the public and because they think they are 
above the law.  I deal with the police almost every day due to my
volunteer work and I like many.   Just don't get on my case because
you believe that suddenly, because I'm driving 56 in a 55, that I'm
now a danger to everyone else.


--
-Al

Al DeVere NREMT-P |     Email to: Al.DeVere@citicorp.com 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Insert std.disclaimer                       DoD# medic
 
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
-Dean Martin

From kevina  Mon May  1 15:26:22 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA28562 for kevina; Mon, 1 May 1995 15:26:21 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!remus.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zswamp!geoff
From: zswamp!geoff@uunet.uu.net (Geoffrey Welsh)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Liv
Message-ID: <ow4D5c4w165w@zswamp.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 17:22:47 EDT
References: <D7pprK.4J1@isgtec.com>
Organization: Izot's Swamp
Lines: 46
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61795 tor.general:21647 ont.general:24195
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2401
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

robert@isgtec.com (Robert Osborne) writes:

> John Anderlie (jaander@uswest.com) wrote:
> # Sorry, but I think you need to step up your research regarding when and
> # how cops are dismissed from their departments.
> 
> I doubt it,  I personally know a number of police officers from a number
> of different police departments,  including my brother and an uncle ...

First and foremost, we must realize that this thread crosses many 
jurisdictions with different federal, state/provincial, and local laws.

> And a number of people complain ...  Yes, police officers will be
> displined and fired - but only if the make a public spectacle of
> doing something clueless - like getting into accidents.

I remember a couple of years ago a Hamilton, Ontario officer faced criminal 
charges for failing to stop before proceeding through an intersection while on 
a call.  He was charged because, in doing so, he hit someone. 

There's no middle ground; if no harm is done, it's kept secret.  However, if 
something does go wrong, they hang the cop involved.

No professional group can get away with that.  Heck, if it wasn't for doctors 
trying to keep doctors in line, and pilots trying to keep pilots in line, 
etc. we'd probably be as nasty as we are to professions that "stick together" 
like the cops do.  And I like to think that we wouldn't cheer so loud when 
some poor schnook who does what every other cop does gets caught doing it and 
is made an example of.

Cops do things like that *because they can*.  Strict enforcement of 
regulations like that and significantly less severe punishments would lead to 
a far better working relationship between cops & the public they 'serve'.

> Why are a couple police officers in the Metro area who had their firearms
> discharge when they "stumbled" - killing black youths - still on the
> force.  Why was a Quebec police officer who "accidently" fired 30 rounds
> from his submachine gun through a hotel door killing two construction
> workers inside never charged with murder?

Interesting cases; care to give more details, especially on when peace 
officers anywhere in this continent were issued fully automatic weapons? 

Geoffrey Welsh geoff@zswamp.uucp, [xenitec.on.ca|m2xenix.psg.com]!zswamp!geoff
       We can only hope that people will outgrow the need for government
      before the government finishes outgrowing the need for the people.

From kevina  Mon May  1 15:26:30 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA28627 for kevina; Mon, 1 May 1995 15:26:29 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!mn.state.net!nic.dot.state.mn.us!news3.mr.net!mr.net!winternet.com!pinch.io.org!ionews.io.org!nobody
From: mdfreed@io.org (Mark Freedman)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general,can.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Liv
Date: 1 May 1995 12:34:59 -0400
Organization: Internex Online (Data: 363-3783/Telnet: io.org)
Lines: 29
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <3o32jk$114@ionews.io.org>
References: <D7AHpz.BxL@isgtec.com> <3nhp8q$ojp@sanews.uswc.uswest.com> <D7pprK.4J1@isgtec.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: grin.io.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:61884 tor.general:21708 ont.general:24244 can.general:45960
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1359
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <D7pprK.4J1@isgtec.com>, Robert Osborne <robert@isgtec.com> wrote:
>
>Why are a couple police officers in the Metro area who had their firearms
>discharge when they "stumbled" - killing black youths - still on the
>force. 

   You mean the case where some cop was bored, so he burst into
a Sunday school class and shot the first black teenager he could find.
Disgusting. No wonder Dudley Laws/protests-R-us Inc. was upset.
 
   The official version claimed that the cop chased a suspect from a
2 AM burglary at an electronics warehouse. He cornered the suspect,
ordered him to turn around and, when ignored, reached out one hand to
turn him around. At that point he slipped and fired his gun. Gee,
who'd believe a story like that ?? Your version is far more credible.
 
   On a more serious note, every time that self-serving agitators
hijack an investigation into a police shooting for their own political
purposes, they waste an opportunity to contribute to procedures which
make arrests safer for officers and suspects.
 
   IMO Dudley Laws and his ilk are more concerned with revenge against
the officer involved and police in general than with building a safer
society. Of course, those who consider themselves outside of society
don't really care whether it's safe or not.
 
 
-- 
   mdfreed@io.org   Mark Freedman (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

From kevina  Tue May  2 00:16:25 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA25603 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 00:16:24 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 21:31:14 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 86
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-0105952131140001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3np4pv$7ea@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3nuvf0$eu4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3938
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In article <3nuvf0$eu4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, stanglt@aol.com (STANGL T) wrote:

> Jamie, what state ARE you a cop in anyways?

I'm not a cop anymore. I left the Sheriffs Department 12 years ago. I was
thrown from my motorcycle, while trying to catch up with a speeder, after
being cut-off and forced to run over a muffler at 75 mph, because the
pea-brain in front of me couldn't hear my siren, from 10 feet off his rear
quarter panel. 

Six months before that, my fiancee was killed giving a field sobriety test
to a drunk driver on the side of the road, when another drunk came along,
hit his cruiser, and pinned him between it and the first drunks car.

I completely recovered from my injuries (physical at least), but decided
I'd sacrificed enough for the $18,000 a year I made, and resigned.

> Responding to and emergency in NC or VA, they must use one or both up to
a >certain distance from the area they are going to

Never had any such restrictions. Some departments do, but to my knowledge
they are "Department Policies," not "Laws." 

>If a cop in NC or VA causes an accident without lights or siren on, THEY
ARE AT FAULT!

Surprising... Most places they are at fault regardless of whether or not
they were using lights & sirens, if it can be shown they were not using
due care for the other traffic. An ambulance driver here just recently got
out of jail, after 5 years, for an accident he caused responding to
another accident.

You don't need to tell me about who's at fault. I used to live w/it
everytime I turned my lights and siren on. People coming out of driveways
right in front of you, pulling left instead of right. I don't think you
could find a cop or
squad driver who hasn't had his share of close calls. And most of them
will tell you it wasn't their fault, people are just dumb when it comes to
driving, they don't pay attention. I know, I've lived it. The guy who cut
me off didn't even stop. Who knows if he to this day even knows what
happened? 
 
> And, BTW, I have seen many a cop hit his lights to get through a red
> light, and followed them for MILES, and they were NOT going anywhere
> important, often going to lunch.  They were NOT responding to a call -
> they went in and sat down to eat.

They could have ben responding to a serious call to back up another car,
and then were told to disregard when the other cars arrived and found the
problem not as serious as first believed.

 Happens all the time. (I used to feel real silly, on those kinds of
calls, go tearing through an intersection, then get the call from the cars
already on the scene to slow down, and all the people you made pull over
at the previous light, catch up with you at the next one. You just want to
hide. 
   (Like at ...The Donut Shop!) 
 
> Cut the self-righteous crap, there ARE cops out there that abuse their
> power, just like ANY other job.

I wasn't being self righteous. I originally responded to someones post
(you might have missed a lot) who was making all cops out to be power-
hungry tax collectors, and had the attitude that every mornings drive to
the office, should be like the Cannon Ball Run. 

I tried to explain that cops get the atttitude they have (don't like
listening to excuses about speeding) because most of us have already seen
one to many "bad accident".


Sorry, but after what I've been through, I have a very low tolerance for
obnoxious drivers.

And I would never deny there are cops out ther who abuse there power.

I not only have KNOWN some, and KNOW some, Ive BEEN one. I'm not proud 
of that, but sometimes you really do "Have to have been there."

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Tue May  2 00:18:13 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA26117 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 00:18:13 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.drexel.edu!dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu!not-for-mail
From: st92j0gw@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Chris T. Papademetrious)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 1 May 1995 14:54:02 -0400
Organization: Drexel University
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3o3aoa$2fj@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2704951959230001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2369
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In article <JamieYanak-2704951959230001@database-mac.oai.org>,
Jamie Yanak <JamieYanak@oai.org> wrote:
>> Well, we all knew this.  But it's disgusting when police  -- 
>> well, at least this one --patronize us about the "dangers" of our driving 
>> 65 in a 55
>
>I'm sorry if I sounded patronizing, It wasn't meant that way, not that I'm
>apologizing for what I said, just the way I said it. My attempt was to 
>show that a simple thing like speeding can cause tragedies (like the one's
>I've personally suffered) that are not readily considered by those
>committing such a casual, and socially accepted act as speeding. Also,
>after sufferring these tragedies, I was not entirely amused with the
>*attitude* of some of the folks here towards speeding or police. In fact I
>was offended.

 I think speeding, as a crime, is over-rated.  I live in Philadelphia,
and on the Schukyll Expressway here, if you're going the speed limit, your
life expectancy will plummet. I will admit that I speed all the time
(usually 75-85mph) when I think it's safe.  If other cars are on the road,
I'll keep it around 70mph, the average highway speed here.  At this speed,
I get passed about as often as I pass others.  Keep in mind the lousy
speed limit here is 55mph.
 
 Now if *I* had the chance, I would be an undercover unmarked police car
in an instant.  My goal?  Not to nab speeders, as the favorite target of
police seems to be.  No, it would be to nab all the complete driving
*ssholes on the road who seem to forget that they have turn signals, or
that they can't do triple lane changes every five minutes, or tailgate so
close it looks like they're being towed.  I don't think speeding is nearly
as dangerous as the incredible amount of reckless driving that goes on on
our highways.  Speeding is not the danger here.  I've seen accidents
happen around me on the highway, and I can't think of one that was
speeding related; they all involved someone just being stupid or unsafe
while driving.  This is what worries me.

>J Y
>
>*********************************************************************
> Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
>    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
><jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
>*********************************************************************

 - Chrispy


From kevina  Tue May  2 00:19:04 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA26420 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 00:19:03 -0400
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!pine.liii.com!iguana
From: iguana@pine.liii.com (David B. Feig)
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Message-ID: <D7wwGq.Fw3@liii.com>
Sender: news@liii.com (News Administrator)
Nntp-Posting-Host: rowan.liii.com
Organization: Long Island Information, Inc. (516-248-5381)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <3nh9pn$mjf@news3.digex.net> <D7KHxr.IBJ@liii.com> <JamieYanak-27049519592
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 18:24:26 GMT
Lines: 52
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2299
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

30001:@database-mac.oai.org>
Organization: Long Island Information, Inc.  (516-248-5381)
Distribution: 

Jamie Yanak (JamieYanak@oai.org) wrote:

: > Well, we all knew this.  But it's disgusting when police  -- 
: > well, at least this one --patronize us about the "dangers" of our driving 
: > 65 in a 55

: I'm sorry if I sounded patronizing, It wasn't meant that way, not that I'm
: apologizing for what I said, just the way I said it. My attempt was to 
: show that a simple thing like speeding can cause tragedies (like the one's
: I've personally suffered) that are not readily considered by those
: committing such a casual, and socially accepted act as speeding. Also,
: after sufferring these tragedies, I was not entirely amused with the
: *attitude* of some of the folks here towards speeding or police. In fact I
: was offended.

Well, I am sorry for your loss. Your attitute offends _me_ though, and
common sense in general.

: > and justify it by saying they have "Specialized
: > driving training".  This is just crap.

: It's not "crap," it's the truth.

Sorry, it is crap.  First of all, it takes NO training to exceed the
speed limit by 10 mph or so in complete safety.  It's still illegal.
Secondly, there are a number of civilian drivers out there with advanced
driving training that far exceeds that normally given to police officers.
It's still illegal for them to speed.  Lastly, from what I've seen
this training is not very sophisticated nor are its results very good.
Then again, how much time is devoted to high-speed driving in training?
Not very much.

It's only an immunity to traffic laws that allows police officers to
drive like anarchists. Training is just an excuse, and a weak one at that.

: I didn't mean (nor do I think) I came off as "sanctimonious." And I have yet
: to hear of a cop who as ever shot someone for not paying a traffic ticket.

Yes, you came off as sanctimonious.  Re-read your original post.

: J Y

: *********************************************************************
:  Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
:     CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
: <jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
: *********************************************************************


From kevina  Tue May  2 00:19:38 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA26681 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 00:19:37 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 20:30:12 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-0105952030120001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.n <9504180108285482@solar.org> <JamieYanak-2104952158480001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nggv8$n2n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3326
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nggv8$n2n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
adr5@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:


> I think 65 is not reasonable given the nive interstates we have and the 
> cars that are now being made.  An upper limit of 85 is more reasonable.

The cars being made today? You mean these little 4 cylinder tin cans, that
blow apart like piniata's when they hit anything. Not to mention the wear
and tear on the engine at 85 mph. I'll never let you drive my baby! 

> I agree with you that large speed differences can cause problems.  BUT, they
> are not insurmountable.  Enforcing some basic rules is all it takes. 
Left lane
> for passing only and no passing on the right.  Easy rules to follow and 
> remember.

Easy rules to follow and remember, huh...*very sardonic grin*

Like what didn't start this whole flame war, was the fact that you guys
don't want to follow the easy rules we already have. (they're called speed
limits guys).

But of course you'll follow these other NEW rules;)

> If the people who want to go 55 stayed in the right lane, where they are 
> supposed to be, then other people wouldn't be forced to work their way around
> them.  Going 55 in the left lane is illegal, in some states at least.  So 
> those people are not obeying the law!  They are being selfish.

Well,...Most of the interstates around me, have 40mph as the minimum.
Meaning you can legally do 40 mph on the highway. This means that all the 
people (in that right lane of yours) that get stuck behind a truck
that's trying to go up a hill should drive on the berm, instead of getting in
your way...*uh, huh* 

Doing 55 in the left lane illegal? Come on Alex, how can it be illegal to 
do the posted speed limit...*That's all I'm gonna say on that one,call me 
mercifull*

Were they're suppossed to be?...*giggle  From now on I will always refer to
the left lane: as the Alex D. Rodriguez Lane...*cross my heart* 

Or would you prefer "Expressway?"

> Not as much of a hazard as the guy who goes 55 in the left lane and won't move
> no matter how nicely you signal him to.  If I am approaching a car going 
> slower than me in the left lane I slow down and keep a safe distance and see
> if he has any intentino of moving.  If he is not watching his mirrors and 
> doesn't move, I approach his car and then back off again. This is a nice
> and polite way of asking him to move over.

There are those that would instead call this: "A nice polite way to 
ask for a Brake Test."...*Kaaaa..Ching!*

>If he still doesn't move then I 
> will try flashing and if that fails then I will pass in the quickeset, safest
> way possible.  Many times this means I am forced to pass in the right lane.

You're forgetting. The guy doing 55 mph (whether he's in the left lane,
OR right lane) is doing the speed limit. 

I think it's kind of caddy for you to blame him for not allowing you to
easily break the law. If you got into an accident in such a situation, I
hope it 
wouldn't be they're fault.

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Tue May  2 15:01:52 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA01527 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:01:51 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 22:31:10 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-0105952231100001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-1404952123370 <D797xz.9Ao@liii.com> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nqm17$qms@spruce.citicorp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:62075 tor.general:21742 ont.general:24281
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2394
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nqm17$qms@spruce.citicorp.com>, al.devere@citicorp.com wrote:

> No sometimes they are responding to an incident, most times they are 
> not.

I really take exception to MOST. Lets compromise, I'll let you have...oh,
lets say...every once in awhile, how does that sound?

> COPs should not be above the law, they should set the example.

I couldn't agree with you more on that.

> As I said in an earlier post, the police are poorly thought
> of by the general public because they are seen enforcing laws that the
> public does not want and that they don't follow.

It WOULD be nice if we could ONLY follow the laws we WANT.

Myself, I've always had a big problem w/that Income Tax stuff, not to
mention Marijuana.

And hey! Why is murder illegal, I mean isn't there someone that everybody
wants to kill (Mr. Rogers),...or did I mean, doesn't everybody want to kill
someone?...*(it's hard being blonde sometimes)* 

>I think YOUR problem is like many cops:  You went to school for 1-3
months and >now think that your beter than everyone else, and above the
law.  Well, your >wrong.

I Don't think I'm a better person, but I KNOW I'm a better driver than most.

I know I wasn't above the law, but you gotta understand, when you are the 
law, it becomes kind of an abstract concept sometimes... 

I mean have you ever seen a police car pull over another police car and
give another cop a ticket? (there's a reason for this, think hard)

>Just don't get on my case because you believe that suddenly, because I'm
>driving 56 in a 55, that I'm now a danger to everyone else.

I have NEVER, ever, ever, given a ticket to someone for 1 mph over the 
speed limit. And I would *conditionally* agree that any cop that did was 
being unfair.  I was a cop for 6 years, and never heard of such a thing.
We gave everyone at least 10 mph. This is considered fair, when taking
into account differences in speedometers, hills, passing slower vehicles
etc.

(not to mention, heaven forbid, a screwed up radar-gun...*nah, couldn't happen*

Drive Safely Honey's, 

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Tue May  2 15:02:24 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA01740 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:02:22 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!malgudi.oar.net!database-mac.oai.org!user
From: JamieYanak@oai.org (Jamie Yanak)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,tor.general,ont.general
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 23:10:55 -0400
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <JamieYanak-0105952310550001@database-mac.oai.org>
References: <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.net> <JamieYanak-2104952215150001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nghhm$o5n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-2704951801540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nqsq7$84p@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: database-mac.oai.org
Xref: news.clark.net rec.autos.driving:62093 tor.general:21751 ont.general:24288
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3869
Apparently-To: kevina
Status: O
X-Status: 

In article <3nqsq7$84p@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
adr5@aloha.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) wrote:

> It's not my spelling, it's my typing.  Really. :) 

Ok, ok, ok, I'll stop being (God help me...yuk) the Grammar/Spelling Police!
 
> In this scenario run with lights only.  Shut your sirens off.  I rather have
> someone run off with my property than have a cop hurt someone.  When you are
> a block away, after you have gone through all intersections, shut the lights
> off.  No one is going to bitch about that.

I'm glad YOU feel that way. However, were I was a cop (West Palm Beach County)
they were quite a bit more materalistic than you. When a burglar alarm 
was received, you were expected to be there yesterday. It is the same in many 
cities inhabited by very wealthy taxpayers. If it takes you more than 4-5
minutes to respond, the Lt's going to want to know why, and you'd better
have a good reason.

It's also not unknown for the "real slick" thieves/burglars to use spotters.
These guys can be blocks away, equipped with radio's, and scanners keeping
a sharp eye out for the responding cars. 

> I think the big light bar on the roof does a good job of giving you away.
> Anyone who misses the light bar during the day is not going to see the lights
> flashing either.

Hah!...You'd be surprised how oblivious people can be. It's the people who
do see the lightbar (because they're breaking the law, and they're looking
for it)
that you worry about it. The only thing they're worried about by that time is,
is it on or not, and is it after me?...When you're looking for a chase
(some cops are) you turn it on far away. When you're REALLY trying to get
someone
you're worried about stopped, you wait till your right on their ass (make sure
there's no question in their mind they're going down)

> I still don't take your word for it.  It comes down to either believing
> what I have seen, or what you say.  I'm sure there have been a couple of times
> when I did misinterpret a cops actions, but most of the time I have seen 
> that the cops were just on routine patrol.  If they had been in a hurry they
> would not have waited for the pedestrians to all cross the street before they
> ran the light.  In the city, that is what I see them do most of the time.

Now come on, there certainly not going to run a red light when there's
pedestrians crossing the street, lights & siren or not.

>I just don't like the attitude alot of them carry.  This past weekend I
got >another example of a cop with an attitude. I was in Atlantic City and
they had >some event on the boardwalk that cause a huge crowd where you
had to squeeze >through to get by.  A young man is slipping through with
his box in the air >playing fairly loud.  Along comes a cop and from 3
feet away yells an obscenity >at him and tells him to "shut that piece of
shit off".  That was completely >uncalled for and unecessary.

Alex, you never know the whole story w/something like that. I'm not saying
it's the case, but  it wouldn't surprise me if the kid was known to the
cop, and 
a regular troublemaker. I'm not trying to make excuses either, but how do you 
know how many times before, the kid was asked nicely? 

But I am willing to bet the kid turned it down, didn't he?

Certain people in this world don't respond to please, even from a supposed
authority figure. When you've been a cop for awhile, you learn to spot the
one's
who are going to require a more "forcefull approach."...*And then again,
sometimes your just having a crabby day!*

J Y

*********************************************************************
 Jamie-Andrea Yanak    **   A pretty girl is an accident.
    CYBER-VIXEN        **   A beautifull woman is an accomplishment.
<jamieyanak@oai.org>   **      **             **             **
*********************************************************************

From kevina  Tue May  2 15:03:54 1995
Received: (kevina@localhost) by clark.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA02457 for kevina; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:03:53 -0400
Path: news.clark.net!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!crl.dec.com!crl.dec.com!jac.zko.dec.com!usenet
From: legerlotz@gigi32.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Cops:  Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them
Date: 2 May 1995 12:05:48 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3o576s$ja7@jac.zko.dec.com>
References: <JamieYanak-1104952242540001@database-mac.oai.org> <3lfhh6$veh@noc.tor.hookup.n <9504180108285482@solar.org> <JamieYanak-2104952158480001@database-mac.oai.org> <3nggv8$n2n@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> <JamieYanak-0105952030120001@database-mac.oai.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bmcmga.zko.dec.com
X-Newsreader: News for Windows NT X1.0-62
Content-Type: text
Content-Len