Subject: Red lights that don't change

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 18:03:08 GMT

I'm sure this question has been asked more than once, but I wasn't here then, so here goes:
According to California vehicle codes you're supposed to stop at a red light until it turns green.
This is fine and dandy, unless it's one of those "special" lights that are only triggered by the weight
of an automobile. The problem: bicycles, most motorcycles, and some sub-compacts don't trigger
them. The result: the eternal red light. A freind of mine just got a ticket for running one on his
motorcycle, and even the officer writing the ticket didn't know what you're "supposed" to do.
Anybody know either the "official policy" or the best way to fight the ticket?
 	J "no pseudonym" Betti

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From: [email-masked] (The R R M Tweek)
Date: 13 Jul 1995 15:23:17 -0700

>Anybody know either the "official policy" or the best way to fight the 
	ticket?

[Watch your word wrap please]

Some tips...  On a motorcycle, if you can see the sensors (if they are
the eddy current types and not the old but still existent weight type)
you can lower your side stand over the sensor cut.

On a bicycle, you can practically lay the bicycle down over the loop.
(don't try this with a motorcycle. ;)

I would be interested in WHERE the actual statutes are which relate
to the sensitivity of these loops.  I am told by a friend who is a
traffic signal engineer, that there are regulations that say that
the sensors *must* be teste on a Honda 150.  My Honda 500 certainly
doesn't trip many of the signals in his domain...  I've looked and looked
for these rules, but have not found them...  I've triple asked him if 
he might be bullsh**ing me... he claims he is not...  but yet he does
not give me the cites.

It doesn't help that some of these no-sense signals are under pavement
not showing the loops...  Usually, if I know where the loop is, I can
get a 99% success rate just by positioning my bike in relation to the
wires...  when you don't know where the wires are, you can end up 
spending 10 minutes repositioning till you find the prime spot.

And then, I know of MANY CalTrans maintained signals which are
completely stupid...  One in particular hase the choice spot
back 20 feet from the limit line...  Took me a while to find it,
as The loop senses my bike pass over it, changes the cross traffic 
signals to red, but then, upon noticing that I am no longer 20ft 
from the limit line, skips the green cycle for my direction and
changes the cross traffic to green again.

I am willing to go out and document all these rougue signals in
my area (5 city govts' 1 county and the state) if I only knew the
proper statutes to cite in my bitch letter.  

Of course, you can always coil 40 lbs of copper wire on your boots...
that ought to trip the sensors.

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From: [email-masked] (Mike Morris)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 17:35:24 GMT

[email-masked] (The R R M Tweek) writes:

<replying to a posting asking for info on traffic signal trigger loops
in the pavement>

>you can lower your side stand over the sensor cut.

On my older Honda 400cc twin I could just place the front wheel over the
wire.  But there are a few places...

My 400 wouldn't trip the northbound loop on one street near my house -
it would on the southbound or anything else around the area. On a car it
would work fine. I lived with it for a few months, to the point of
avoiding that street to go home.  One day, I commented to a motorcycle
cop who was curious about my ham radio on the bike, and a boom mike I
had added to the helmet (several years before the police departments
started doing it), and he said "Huh?", then we rode over and verified
the low sensitivity of the loop. One phone call to city public 
works / traffic engineering had it added to the list for the signal 
crew.  The cop, after hanging up the pay phone, told me it would be 
fixed within a couple of weeks - it was fixed in a week.

<snip>

>changes the cross traffic to green again.

That spot probably has two loops - one close, one back one car length,
and the front loop is probably not working... One intersection here in
town has two loops - the 1st detects the first vehicle, the 2nd ups the
priority (i.e. more cars waiting).

<snip>

>that ought to trip the sensors.

Maybe somebody could come up with a oscillator & coil unit that could
me mounted under the engine of a motorcycle - press a button after you
pull over the loop and get a good solid pulse into the loops.  All it
would take is reading the frequency of the loop (i.e. transformer
effect), then echo back a burst a little off frequency.

-- 
Mike Morris   WA6ILQ          | All opinions must be my own since nobody
PO Box 1130                   | pays me enough to be their mouthpiece...
Arcadia, CA. 91077            |
ICBM: 34.07.930N, 118.03.799W | Reply to: [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (The R R M Tweek)
Date: 15 Jul 1995 11:38:29 -0700

>wire.  But there are a few places...

The aluminium Honda Comstar wheels don't work though, as they contain
terrible magnetic properties... Maybe I should get some steel belted
tires? ;)

>fixed within a couple of weeks - it was fixed in a week.

Good service.  Maybe my problem is, I tell the traffic tech over
beers on a Friday night.

>and the front loop is probably not working... One intersection here in

Or just much less sensitive.

>effect), then echo back a burst a little off frequency.

And if that doesn't work, then it would send out a larger burst of
power and smoke the signal control box...  Then you could really
claim it was defective. ;)

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From: [email-masked] (Glenn Mandelkern)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 00:30:29 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Robert Lester <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I have had this happen to me once or twice.  Usually I make a right turn
>(since that is a legal move) and go around the intersection some other
>way.
>

What if there's a sign that says "NO TURN ON RED"?  8-)

But seriously, that's probably the thing I'd do too if no signs,
one-way or otherwise preventing the move.  

One time I did see a passenger get out of a car and hit the pedestrian 
crosswalk button which eventually made the light cycle back to our
direction.

Sometimes I've been at intersections where you arrive and all directions
are stuck solid red.  If you roll back and forth in your vehicle eventually
one of the sensors picks it up.  I wonder if that might work for
a lighter weight vehicle.

-- 
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern                                          Hee, hee, hee, hee!
[email-masked]                                     Questor the Elf lives!

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From: Gene Kennedy 95SL2 <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Jul 1995 19:34:44 GMT

>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>   According to California vehicle codes
>   you're supposed to stop at a red light until it turns green.  This
>   is fine and dandy, unless it's one of those "special" lights that
>   are only triggered by the weight of an automobile. The problem:
>   bicycles, most motorcycles, and some sub-compacts don't trigger
>   them. The result: the eternal red light. 
Well this is from memory and I can't quote you the law but I
think you are required to stay at the red light for 2 minutes
and then if it doesn't change you have the right to assume it
is broken and may never change. Check to be sure.
GK

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From: [email-masked] (Mike Morris)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 07:16:37 GMT

>is broken and may never change. Check to be sure.

Just an FYI - weight sensors are too much trouble, and haven't been used
in years.  Almost all are now using magnetic sensors - just a coil of
wire laid in a grove cut in the asphalt.  The big problem is that the
average bicycle and many small motorcycles don't have enough ferrous
metal close enough to the pavement coil to trigger it.

Same end result, slightly different cause.

--

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From: [email-masked] (Johnny King, Northern California USA)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:42:32 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
:    I'm sure this question has been asked more than once, but I wasn't
:    here then, so here goes: According to California vehicle codes
:    you're supposed to stop at a red light until it turns green.  This
:    is fine and dandy, unless it's one of those "special" lights that
:    are only triggered by the weight of an automobile. The problem:
:    bicycles, most motorcycles, and some sub-compacts don't trigger
:    them. The result: the eternal red light. A freind of mine just got
:    a ticket for running one on his motorcycle, and even the officer
:    writing the ticket didn't know what you're "supposed" to do.
:    Anybody know either the "official policy" or the best way to fight
:    the ticket?

If it doesn't respond to traffic as it is supposed to do, it is 
not operating properly, in other words, "inoperative".

California Vehicle Code Sec. 21800(d):

21800. (d)
   (1) The driver of any vehicle approaching an intersection which has
official traffic control signals that are *inoperative* shall stop at the
intersection, and may proceed with caution when it is safe to do so. 
   (2) When two vehicles enter an intersection from different highways at
the same time, and the official traffic control signals for the
intersection are *inoperative*, the driver of the vehicle on the left
shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle on his or her immediate right,
except that the driver of any vehicle on a terminating highway shall yield
the right-of-way to any vehicle on the intersecting continuing highway. 

=======================
Johnny King
Northern California USA
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
=======================

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From: [email-masked] (Glenn Mandelkern)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:04:29 GMT

Gary Richards (Mr. Roadshow) had a list of the longest red lights in
the South Bay on page 1H (Living Section) of Sunday's paper (7/23/95).
One measured at 10 minutes.  Another one was about 9:03.