From kevina  Thu Jul 27 13:39:50 1995
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Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Speed limits v actual spd
From: jim.poston@megasystem.com (Jim Poston)
Message-ID: <215.1945.2803@megasystem.com>
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MT> I TOTALLY reject any study as flawed and self-interested that
  > asserts that people will not speed  with higher speed limits in
  > place.  They do...they will.  I teach 300 people a week who
  > confirm this.

   Mr. Traffic:

   I felt the same way as you, though my instructors and texts said
   otherwise.  In fact, I believed what you do, until I performed
   before-after studies myself.  Actual speeds do not change
   significantly when the speed limit is increased or decreased.

   What I said was *actual speeds* do not change.  I'm not talking
   about driver's estimates of speeds, or opinions, or logical
   arguments.  Actual speeds.

   Since you don't believe it, and I doubt anyone can convince you, I
   suggest you get a radar gun and do your own study when a speed
   limit is going to be changed near you.  I'll bet you get similar
   results to that of every study which has been done on the subject,
   from national to local.

   Flawed?  Self-interested?  Show us your un-flawed, non-self-
   interested study.  Chats with students during your classes don't
   count.  And BTW, the NMA didn't commission the study, the Federal
   Highway Administration did.

   Also BTW, what facts do you get from those 300 people a week?  Do
   they give you speed monitor printouts from their vehicles before
   and after speed limit changes?  Or do they SAY they change their
   speed?

-- Jim
   jim.poston@megasystem.com

   P.S.  Yes, I'm a member of the National Motorists Association, so
   you may call me self-interested if you wish.  OTOH, I'm also a
   professional traffic engineer, and member and office-holder of the
   Institute of Transportation Engineers, so maybe they offset ...

---
 þ SLMR 2.1a þ         I wish life had a scroll-back buffer.....


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From kevina  Thu Jul 27 19:49:54 1995
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From: kennystar@megaweb.com (KENNY MORSE)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:08:12
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In article <215.1945.2803@megasystem.com> Jim Poston wrote:
>>   Mr. Traffic:
>
>   I felt the same way as you, though my instructors and texts said
>   otherwise.  In fact, I believed what you do, until I performed
>   before-after studies myself.  Actual speeds do not change
>   significantly when the speed limit is increased or decreased.
>
>   What I said was *actual speeds* do not change.  I'm not talking
>   about driver's estimates of speeds, or opinions, or logical
>   arguments.  Actual speeds.
>
>   

ACTUAL SPEEDS.......EXACTLY.

In the zones here in California where the speed limit is 55, the 
flow of traffic is somewhere between 65-75.

In the areas where they RAISED THE SPEED LIMIT to 65,
the average flow of traffic is 75->90.  If you're going to say
that no matter what the zone, people will go at least 10mph
+ over the sign, I'll say RIGHT.  I KNOW THAT! My classes
are FILLED with that.

What I am saying is that the REASONS that many people feel that
it is acceptable to do that has NOTHING to do with a perception
that 55, or 65 is an unfair speed.  It is based on self-interest. Many
of you who DO feel that 55/65 is unfair....I say FINE! Get the
law changed.  Until you do.....slow the hell down unless you want
to pay for my next vacation.   And don't get pissed off at the cop 
when they stop you.  You're pissed off at yourselves for getting caught.
get caught
>
>   Flawed?  Self-interested?  Show us your un-flawed, non-self-
>   interested study.  Chats with students during your classes don't
>   count.  

CHATS? CHATS?  Hello....McFly!!!!!

Trivializing the feedback I have gotten from hundreds of thousands of
people who have gotten caught, and the rest of them who I talk to
on the air doesn't help make your point.

And BTW, the NMA didn't commission the study, the Federal
> Highway Administration did.

Right....and what Governmental studies do you DISAGREE with?
I would guess plenty.
>
>   Also BTW, what facts do you get from those 300 people a week?  Do
>   they give you speed monitor printouts from their vehicles before
>   and after speed limit changes?  Or do they SAY they change their
>   speed?

Yes...they say their speed.  The facts are THE BEST ones...the real
people doing real behavior.  They don't just represent the ones who
got caught....they represent us as a whole.
>
>->   P.S.  Yes, I'm a member of the National Motorists Association, so
>   you may call me self-interested if you wish.  OTOH, I'm also a
>   professional traffic engineer, and member and office-holder of the
>   Institute of Transportation Engineers, so maybe they offset ...

And....since you are a member of the NMA.....I applaud ANYONE who
tries to get the laws changed for their point of view instead of most
people who are sheep who won't put their Doritos and beer
down long enough to even go VOTE!  Go for it!
>
Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"



From kevina  Fri Jul 28 00:16:42 1995
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From: jor@iis06.IAS.berkeley.edu (Jason O'Rourke)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 28 Jul 1995 00:34:38 GMT
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KENNY MORSE <kennystar@megaweb.com> wrote:
>In the areas where they RAISED THE SPEED LIMIT to 65,
>the average flow of traffic is 75->90.  If you're going to say

You idiot.  People were going 70-90 on the I-5 before and after they 
raised the speed limit to 65.  It's pretty dumb comparing a city highway 
that remained at 55 to a 500 mile straighaway that was finally put back 
near what it should be.  Compare the same road with different limits, not 
different roads with different limits.  Otherwise, you'll prove the 
obvious: people drive faster where there is less traffic, better roads, 
and no hills.

>CHATS? CHATS?  Hello....McFly!!!!!

Unless your traffic school includes a formal talk session with each 
student, yes you are simply chatting.

Mr. Traffic you aint.

Jason O'Rourke

From kevina  Fri Jul 28 00:16:55 1995
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From: kennystar@megaweb.com (KENNY MORSE)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 18:36:41
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>
>You idiot.  People were going 70-90 on the I-5 before and after they 
>raised the speed limit to 65.  It's pretty dumb comparing a city highway 
>that remained at 55 to a 500 mile straighaway that was finally put back 
>near what it should be.  Compare the same road with different limits, not 
>different roads with different limits.  Otherwise, you'll prove the 
>obvious: people drive faster where there is less traffic, better roads, 
>and no hills.

Nope.....people drive faster no matter WHAT!  And as for calling someone
an idiot.....thats MR. Idiot to you (can always tell someone on shaky ground
....they hurl insults).
>
>>CHATS? CHATS?  Hello....McFly!!!!!
>
>Unless your traffic school includes a formal talk session with each 
>student, yes you are simply chatting.
>

Nope....not in my classes.
>Mr. Traffic you aint.

I have a feeling you'll find out sometime soon (or someone like me).
Thanks for the laughs.

Kenny
>
>Jason O'Rourke
>



From kevina  Sat Jul 29 01:25:37 1995
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From: Corey Alambar <corwyn>
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 28 Jul 1995 07:32:10 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics Technical Support
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Well, I'm going to stop the bickering and ditch the obligatory ad hominem
attack, having vented that earlier.

But the point remains is this:  In my experience (as someone who logs 40-50K
miles a year on the road), the interstate freeways have ALWAYS been averaging
75-90. 

Just as a case in point, a personal anecdote:  New York's speed limit is 55.
Everywhere.  They don't have reasonable laws about rural freeways. Life sucks,
but so does New York.  Traffic during commute times on the LIE are about
comparable to those here in the Bay Area, in similar conditions (the LIE
equates surprisingly nicely to 101 through Silicon Valley).  And speeds on the
Thruway are, on average, about the same as those on I-5.

There are two classes of people who change their speeds when the speed limits
change:

(a)  Those who are law abiding or are very scared of getting pulled over for
some reason.  This include people with lapsed registrations, no unsurance, a
record, etc., etc.  Also people like my father, who follow the speed limits
because they're the law, even though he admits that they are set too low on
many of these roads.

(b)  Newer drivers, who are confident enough that they can push the limit, but
not confident enough to drive by "feel" rather than by the speedometer.  I can
see these kinds of people, who move at speeds that don't equate well with the
flow of traffic, who put on their brakes at speed limit changes, etc.  They
also tend to be ultra-paranoid about police as well, but because they know
they're doing something wrong.


Experienced drivers drive based upon road conditions and the flow of traffic.
Speed limits should not be absolutes, but more guidelines.  Like those numbers
they post for turns (that are normally 10-20 mph lower than actually
necessary).  This way you have something general for traffic, and let the
conditions dictate to those who know how to drive. The way it should be.

-Corey


From kevina  Sat Jul 29 01:25:44 1995
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From: addam@cco.caltech.edu (Adam Neil Villani)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 28 Jul 1995 20:20:33 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
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In article <3v9f13$iaq@news-e1a.megaweb.com>,
KENNY MORSE <kennystar@megaweb.com> wrote:
>
>Nope.....people drive faster no matter WHAT!  And as for calling someone
>an idiot.....thats MR. Idiot to you (can always tell someone on shaky ground
>....they hurl insults).

For example, referring to a factual study as "misleading BULLSHIT,"
or doing this:`
>>
>>>CHATS? CHATS?  Hello....McFly!!!!!
>>

Yes, that's the true mark of someone whose arguments have no ground
to stand on.

-- 
Adam Villani
addam@cco.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."

From kevina  Sat Jul 29 01:25:55 1995
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From: addam@cco.caltech.edu (Adam Neil Villani)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 28 Jul 1995 20:11:51 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
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In article <3v8va0$ck2@news-e1a.megaweb.com>,
KENNY MORSE <kennystar@megaweb.com> wrote:
>
>ACTUAL SPEEDS.......EXACTLY.
>
>In the zones here in California where the speed limit is 55, the 
>flow of traffic is somewhere between 65-75.
>
>In the areas where they RAISED THE SPEED LIMIT to 65,
>the average flow of traffic is 75->90.  If you're going to say
>that no matter what the zone, people will go at least 10mph
>+ over the sign, I'll say RIGHT.  I KNOW THAT! My classes
>are FILLED with that.

Sorry, but this doesn't stand up to logic, Kenny. The 65 mph zones
are all different areas than the 55 areas. I just drove from LA to
Seattle yesterday and dropped my speed 10 mph when in city areas
because the traffic density (i.e. the comfortable speed for me) 
required it. It was not a coincidence that these were generally the 55
mph zones. This is NOT what the Tignor & Warren study monitored,
however. They changed the speed limits o identical stretches of
road to get the same speed by the drivers. Obviously a 25-mph
residential street is going to have people driving a lot
slower than a 65 mph interstate. But if the limit on the residential
street were changed to 65 mph, would people go 80 on it? I doubt
it.

(of course, an isolated 65 mph residential street would probably
attract drag racers, the comparison isn't completely valid.)

>Yes...they say their speed.  The facts are THE BEST ones...the real
>people doing real behavior.  They don't just represent the ones who
>got caught....they represent us as a whole.

No, they don't represent me. Who elected them? They're real people
who got caught doing real behavior that got them caught. People
who got caught are much more likely to have been doing something
that attracted the attention of the cop who caught them.

-- 
Adam Villani
addam@cco.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."

From kevina  Sat Jul 29 08:05:20 1995
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From: Floyd_-_Meyer@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 29 Jul 1995 01:20:05 -0700
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   All the hue and cry about the speed limits miss the real point. The 
55 was put in by the Federal Government. For those who don't know, in
politics, things just dont happen, there is a reason for everything.
Most of the time the reason you hear is not the "REAL REASON". 

    The keeping of the 55 these 23 years is no accident. Congress
passed a law to lift the 55 and Clinton is making noises like he
will veto it. If he does, the warning flag goes up another 6 notches.

    Since we do not know the real reason for the 55 we must protect
against the "WORST CASE" situation. Clinton and Bush and Nixon before them,
has plans to become an "IMPERIAL PRESIDENT" and rule for life.
   Once the white collar crooks steal trillions of dollars (with the
governments blessing) (it's already done), then take the peoples guns
away (the plan is being implimented). The final act is to raise the 
price of a trafic citation about 5 times, then enforce the 55 strictly.

    There will be the super rich and the poor. With the "open border
policy" jobs will pay $5.00 an hour, gasoline will be $3.00 a gallon 
and every time you drive your car you get a $500.00 ticket.

   This would conquer the country from within. The rich crooks will
control everything. The BAFT already has 22 attack  aircraft and 
a bunch of light armord vehicles the government bought from
Russia when they collapsed. They are not good combat equipment, but
against UNARMED CITIZENS they work real well.

    This is the "WORST CASE" picture. To gaurd against it we must remove
the 55. That removes one step that is already in place.

Floyd

From kevina  Sat Jul 29 08:05:42 1995
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From: kennystar@megaweb.com (KENNY MORSE)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:29:59
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I wrote:
>
>>Yes...they say their speed.  The facts are THE BEST ones...the real
>>people doing real behavior.  They don't just represent the ones who
>>got caught....they represent us as a whole.

This is incredible Adam.  "Because I DON'T do it...that means
that the majority don't do it. The ostrich syndrome. And you call
ME wrong?  When YOU start teaching regular people like
you and I who happen t get caught, THEN call me. In the meantime,
I don't tell you who YOUR customers are, your estimation of
who MINE are is an uninformed opinion. BUT...hey...
you're entitled to be wrong like many.
>
>No, they don't represent me. Who elected them? They're real people
>who got caught doing real behavior that got them caught. People
>who got caught are much more likely to have been doing something
>that attracted the attention of the cop who caught them.
>
>-- 
>Adam Villani
>addam@cco.caltech.edu
>http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
>"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."
>



From kevina  Sat Jul 29 08:05:59 1995
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From: addam@cco.caltech.edu (Adam Neil Villani)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 29 Jul 1995 07:14:34 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
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In article <3vckj3$2dh@news-e1a.megaweb.com>,
KENNY MORSE <kennystar@megaweb.com> wrote:
>
>I wrote:
>>
>>>Yes...they say their speed.  The facts are THE BEST ones...the real
>>>people doing real behavior.  They don't just represent the ones who
>>>got caught....they represent us as a whole.
>
>This is incredible Adam.  "Because I DON'T do it...that means
>that the majority don't do it. The ostrich syndrome. And you call
>ME wrong?  When YOU start teaching regular people like
>you and I who happen t get caught, THEN call me. In the meantime,
>I don't tell you who YOUR customers are, your estimation of
>who MINE are is an uninformed opinion. BUT...hey...
>you're entitled to be wrong like many.


No, I'll tell you who my customers are. I'm still at school and
manage the coffeehouse at school. People don't mind when I play
music loud enough to require shouting. But I'm smart enough to realize
that I couldn't do that at a place where I served the general
public. I know that my customers are not a cross-section of hungry
Pasadenas, they're a cross-section of hungry Caltech students.
Likewise, YOU should realize that you are not dealing with a cross-
section of all Californians; you're dealing with a cross-section
of Californians who've received traffic citations. They may seem
like regular people, and many of them are. But they do NOT represent
all Californians. Face it, some people are a lot more likely to
get tickets, and these people are a lot more likely to show up
in one of your classes.


-- 
Adam Villani
addam@cco.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."

From kevina  Wed Aug  2 01:34:54 1995
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From: jemiller@netcom.com (John Edward Miller)
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
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KENNY MORSE (kennystar@megaweb.com) wrote:

: In the zones here in California where the speed limit is 55, the 
: flow of traffic is somewhere between 65-75.

: In the areas where they RAISED THE SPEED LIMIT to 65,
: the average flow of traffic is 75->90.  If you're going to say
: that no matter what the zone, people will go at least 10mph
: + over the sign, I'll say RIGHT.  I KNOW THAT! My classes
: are FILLED with that.

The numbers don't support you.  I don't even think the CHP would promote
that view.  

Tell me, how fast do you drive on the street in front of your house?  Would 
you drive 10 mph faster if the speed limit were raised 10 mph?  I know I 
wouldn't, because the speed I drive is based on my perception of what's
safe.  

When it comes to freeways, I'd bet that any road with an 85th-percentile 
speed of 80 mph now had an 85th-percentile speed of 80 mph when it was 
posted at 55.  Besides, we're arguing the wrong point - on the freeway at
least, who cares how fast people are driving?  The real issue is whether 
they are hitting things more often if they do drive faster.  

If you took the speed limit signs down - completely did away with posted
speed limits over 75% of the freeway system - then put up speed limits where
necessary based on real safety requirements, I'd bet you'd have at least 65%
compliance - which is 100% more than you've got now.

55 has given us a Chicken Little syndrome - we (well, some of us already
knew it) have discovered that the sky does NOT fall when they hit 60, or 65, 
or even 85 in some places, so why should we pay attention to the limits at
all?  

John.

From kevina  Wed Aug  2 01:37:16 1995
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From: kennystar@megaweb.com (KENNY MORSE)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 12:25:16
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In article <jemillerDCn5wA.DDp@netcom.com> John Edward Miller wrote:
>KENNY MORSE (kennystar@megaweb.com) wrote:
>
>: In the zones here in California where the speed limit is 55, the 
>: flow of traffic is somewhere between 65-75.
>
>: In the areas where they RAISED THE SPEED LIMIT to 65,
>: the average flow of traffic is 75->90.  If you're going to say
>: that no matter what the zone, people will go at least 10mph
>: + over the sign, I'll say RIGHT.  I KNOW THAT! My classes
>: are FILLED with that.
>

John wrote:
>The numbers don't support you.  I don't even think the CHP would promote
>that view.  
>

You're quite wrong.  Not only do the numbers support that, but all
you have to do is look at TWO things....the people in my classes
who get caught, and your eyes when on these roads.

You, like others, are extrapolating an attitude that because "I don't
do this for these reasons".......I wish more people were like you,
but they justa ain't.  When I get numbers, they USUALLY
come from the CHP for Freeway stats!
>Tell me, how fast do you drive on the street in front of your house?  Would 
>you drive 10 mph faster if the speed limit were raised 10 mph?  I know I 
>wouldn't, because the speed I drive is based on my perception of what's
>safe.  

Here again...YOU wouldn't.  Most would.  Hey...are you kidding?
People drive 35-40 in a residential neighborhood or school zone,
with children present.  What's safe about THAT???  John....
not YOU......THEM!
>
>When it comes to freeways, I'd bet that any road with an 85th-percentile 
>speed of 80 mph now had an 85th-percentile speed of 80 mph when it was 
>posted at 55.  Besides, we're arguing the wrong point - on the freeway at
>least, who cares how fast people are driving?  The real issue is whether 
>they are hitting things more often if they do drive faster.  
>
>Nope.....no 85% at 80mph on 55 roads.....65 yes!!!  Interestingly
enough, the incidence of people hitting things in the 65 zones in
California is NOT very high.  You can attribute this to many things
but one of the biggest factors is the sparcity of flow of traffic.

If you took the speed limit signs down - completely did away with posted
>speed limits over 75% of the freeway system - then put up speed limits where
>necessary based on real safety requirements, I'd bet you'd have at least 65%
>compliance - which is 100% more than you've got now.
>
We disagree.  I know what the studies show.  I believe NOT based on
a study by ANYONE.....government or otherwise, when I can believe
my eyes.  

>55 has given us a Chicken Little syndrome - we (well, some of us already
>knew it) have discovered that the sky does NOT fall when they hit 60, or 65, 
>or even 85 in some places, so why should we pay attention to the limits at
>all?  

Simple......1: It's the law.
                 2: If you don't like the law...change it...or break it & pay!
                 3: Since WAY too many people are doing stupid things like 
tailgaiting, weaving lanes, DUI.....they drive with no license...they drive with
no insurance.....I could go on.......until we have laws or education that stop 
people from these behaviors, until then, speed IS a factor!!  I wish it was
otherwise.

You know....many people who post here probably have NEVER been in an
injury crash, cause if they had, they probably would feel that the consequences
of operating a moving bullet....a motor vehicle, NEEDS the strictest of
regulations.  When I observe on a daily basis, the stupid things that
Californian's are doing on the road, and the consequence of those actions
on themselves, and sadly, others....it makes me VERY cautious.  Most
people who end up like Christopher Reeve, get there because someone
made a mistake BEHIND THE WHEEL.  A life sentence.

Kenny Morse
"Mr. Traffic"

>
>John.
>



From kevina  Wed Aug  2 01:39:06 1995
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From: Mike@Geary.com (Michael Geary)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
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In article <3vlv5r$o3j@news-e1a.megaweb.com> kennystar@megaweb.com (KENNY MORSE) writes:

>Simple......1: It's the law.
>                 2: If you don't like the law...change it...or break it & pay!

Repressive speed limits have been national law for over 20 years.  Now that 
the feds may be repealing that law, the State of California assures us there 
will be no significant changes in our state laws.

So much for democracy.  As I mentioned in my other message, highway speed 
limits are one of the clearest examples possible that we do not live in 
anything resembling a democracy.  Instead, we live under a system where an 
elite think they know best, and they have the power to enact laws that make 
the vast majority of people lawbreakers.

>                 3: Since WAY too many people are doing stupid things like 
>tailgaiting, weaving lanes, DUI.....they drive with no license...they drive with
>no insurance.....I could go on.......until we have laws or education that stop 
>people from these behaviors, until then, speed IS a factor!!  I wish it was
>otherwise.

So deal with the real problems!  All the things you mentioned are already 
illegal.  You don't need repressive speed limits to deal with those other 
problems, and there is no evidence that repressive speed limits help deal with 
those other problems.  In fact, they may well aggravate the other factors, 
because making people lawbreakers makes them crazy.

The highway is quite literally a police state.  Nearly everybody is breaking 
the law almost all the time, and the police essentially have the power to stop 
anybody, anytime, merely for driving as normal people do.

Police states breed contempt for the law, contempt for fellow citizens, 
irresponsible behavior, and all the other problems we see on the highway.  A 
police state is the worst possible way to encourage people to be responsible, 
cooperative, and courteous to each other.  But those are exactly the qualities 
needed to make our highways safer.

-Mike


From kevina  Wed Aug  2 01:42:07 1995
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From: folsomman@aol.com (FolsomMan)
Newsgroups: ca.driving
Subject: Re: Speed limits v actual spd
Date: 1 Aug 1995 23:24:23 -0400
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Mr. Traffic (Kenny Morse) wrote:

...
>Simple......1: It's the law.
>                 2: If you don't like the law...change it...or break it &
pay!
>                 3: Since WAY too many people are doing stupid things
like 
>tailgaiting, weaving lanes, DUI.....they drive with no license...they
drive with
>no insurance.....I could go on.......until we have laws or education that
stop 
>people from these behaviors, until then, speed IS a factor!!  I wish it
was
>otherwise.

You may not realize this but many of the people you have been arguing with
have been advocating a change in the speed laws.  You might also consider
that if freeway enforcement of speed limits were not so lucrative and
easy, there would be more time and incentive for police (and their
management) to pursue the dangerous types you list.  

>You know....many people who post here probably have NEVER been in an
>injury crash, cause if they had, they probably would feel that the
consequences
>of operating a moving bullet....a motor vehicle, NEEDS the strictest of

I have a close relative who lost a wife and daughter to a drunk driver a
few decades ago and he suffered broken bones and other injuries himself. 
In addition, I have since lost a brother and a brother in-law in
automobile accidents.  I have totalled two cars and rolled another myself
(always drinking, all before 1974).  Every accident that I have personal
knowledge of involved someone who was impaired or incompetent to drive. 
Only one was on a freeway and that was in the middle of the night, where
my brother-in-law (who shouldn't have driven at all) was overrun by a
semi, after he had been driving for more than 20 hours.  I haven't even
had a close call since I quit drinking in 1974, and I drive very fast and
agressively (though I don't tailgate often) on freeways.  The relative who
lost his wife and daughter drives more agressively and takes more chances
than I do and has been doing it for longer, again without incident for
several decades.

>regulations.  When I observe on a daily basis, the stupid things that
>Californian's are doing on the road, and the consequence of those actions
>on themselves, and sadly, others....it makes me VERY cautious.  Most
>people who end up like Christopher Reeve, get there because someone
>made a mistake BEHIND THE WHEEL.  A life sentence.

Frankly, eating too much fat is much more dangerous than exceeding the
speed limit sober in daylight on a limited access freeway.  If the speeder
has enough sense to slow to near the speed of traffic he is overtaking,
the danger is really small.

Mark Folsom

