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Re: 65 means 65



In article <406apr$6ui@news-e1a.megaweb.com>,
KENNY MORSE <kennystar@megaweb.com> wrote:
>
>In article <4061hf$ft9@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Adam Neil Villani wrote:
>>You've often mentioned the fact that people with tickets from city driving
>>(limit 55) are often about 70 or so, and people with tickets from rural
>>driving (limit 65) are often about 80. You say that this means "people
>>will go 10-15 mph over the speed limit." I think you're misinterpreting
>>the facts here. I think people go 70 in the city and 80 in farm
>>country because those are appropriate speeds in those areas, not because
>>those appropriate speeds happen to be 15 miles per hour over the speed
>>limit. There's less traffic out on the 5, the road is much straighter,
>>there is less merging and exits/entrances. Of course the ambient
>>speed is higher. But 65 is no more a reasonable limit in farm country
>>than 55 is in the city. Think about it: if people drive 70 in the
>>city, then why would they go down to 65 in the country just because
>>it's legal? 
>
>Adam....
>
>is APPROPRIATE is EXACTLY the point I HAVE BEEN MAKING...
>the questions I have been posing is WHAT CRITERIA DO
>PEOPLE ARRIVE AT WHAT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THEM???
>It is my experience that people do NOT speed because of percieved
>unfairness of the speed laws (to which I agree)...it is their own personal
>sense of what THEY can "get away" with and hope NOT to get caught.

Hmm. I like to drive fast, but I do not like to feel unsafe, and I
also do not want to get caught by a cop. I think we can establish
a few things about drivers, with the exception of a few maniacs:

Nobody wants to get caught by cops. Nobody wants to get in an
accident. Therefore there are two limiting factors to a driver's
speed: Slow enough not to get caught by cops *and* slow enough
to feel reasonably safe. People drive up to the speed that they
feel will make them more likely to be caught by cops or more
likely to get in an accident, whichever is slower (unless they
just don't feel like driving that fast).

You might think that safety doesn't enter people's minds, but it 
does. If there were no speed limit, would the majority of people
drive at the physical limits of their cars? If you're driving
along the 405 and see a bunch of brakelights ahead of you, you
slow down because there's the hazard of slow cars ahead, not because
you're afraid of being ticketed. Even if you know that the cops 
hardly ever drive down your street, you still don't floor it,
because you know what a safe speed is for your street.

You frequently cite the fact that people have a great trust in you
and feel free to tell you why they speed. But what they actually
do is tell you why they _think_ they speed. This may or may
not really be why they speed. How often do you think about why
you slow down when turning corners? The conscious reason for
a person's behavior may be different than their unconscious reason
for their behavior. It's foolish to not actually monitor a person's
behavior when collecting data, and only rely on what they tell
you. They may not be lying to you, but they aren't necessarily
aware of all their actions and their reasonings behind them.
(Likewise, collecting nothing but quantitative data is stupid.)
Asking people if they would speed if the limit were raised by 10
mph is not worthless, but it is certainly not the final say in
the matter. To draw a reliable conclusion, you'd have to raise
the limit by 10 mph and see how fast they actually drove.

>YOU may drive at a speed YOU consider to be appropriate.  If you
>break the law, get caught...don't complain when you have to pay
>mega$$$ to the insurance companies.  What IS REALLY appropriate??
>This.....drive at a speed that is both SAFE, and probably (keyword) NOT
>going to get you ticketed and all the crap that falls from that moment.  Until
>the laws change (which they should and are), THAT is what is appropriate.

This is the point, that the laws _should_ be changed to reflect appropriate
driving behavior. Put the speed limit at a level that accurately 
reflects what a safe driving speed is for a road, and let the cops
ticket only those who truly are driving at an inappropriate speed.

>We CANNOT have everyone deciding what is appropriate at THIS point
>in time because of the diversity of cultures evident in this state, the lack of
>adequate education and testing, and the lack of courtesy or consideration
>that is also evident on our roads....and trying to blame it on archaic speed
>laws begs the REAL issue as to why people behave the way they do (which I
>addressed in a previous post).

Of course, everyone has their own idea of what is appropriate. And 
certainly with better driver training and more stringent certification,
people will become better judges of what is or is not appropriate
driving. But keeping asinine speed laws is no way to make our roads
better. We may not know what is truly an appropriate speed for a 
road, (in fact, it's different for every driver) but surely 70%
of the drivers (an approximation of how many drivers exceed the speed
limit) are not driving at unsafe speeds. If anything, bad speed
laws make criminals out of otherwise good drivers and ensure greater
speed differentials on roads, which is one major factor in causing
accidents. This is because there will be a minority of drivers that
keep their speeds artificially low to comply with the law rather
than safety.

>no matter WHAT the zone (like the study says) and I keep answering its
>WAY more complex than that....and I only wish it wasn't.
It is complex, but raising speed limits to reasonable levels would
be a good first step toward making the roads safer, more efficient,
and more enjoyable.


About me... I'll be 22 in a month, and in the fall I'll be a senior
in Geology at Caltech. Being a student, I can't afford a car of
my own, so I only drive when I can borrow someone else's. I live,
work, and go to school on campus, so I rarely have to drive for
"business." Instead, I drive for entertainment, both to get to
fun places (I go to the movies more than once a week) and for
the sake of driving itself. I've lived in Southern California
since 1975.

Feel free to take a look at my web page to see some more stuff
of or by me.


-- 
Adam Villani
addam@cco.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~addam
"I was in this prematurely air-conditioned supermarket..."


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