Subject: Freeway Etiquette

From: Lord Kittenslayer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:44:38 -0800

On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Adam Szymczak wrote:

> My biggest beef: people who insist on driving in the middle lane around 
> the speed limit on 3 or more lane highways. I have one piece of advice: 
> MOVE OVER! I hate passing on the right, especially near onramps/offramps. 
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that passing on the right is 
> illegal in Germany and other European countries.

Passing on the right is all but impossible, since the slower drivers are 
curtious and move over as far right as possible to begin with.

Sometimes people will get out of the way for you even if they are right 
about to make a left turn (on highways, not freeways). That happened to 
me all the time in Belgium, and I was really impressed. Likewise, I would 
stay as far right as possible, and yield to anyone approaching in the 
rear-view.  I really wish American drivers were more like that.

---

From: [email-masked] (Dan Hepner)
Date: 16 Nov 1995 02:04:47 GMT

>Adam Szymczak wrote:

> MOVE OVER! I hate passing on the right, especially near onramps/offramps. 

The cultural support for this position is very weak, especially in
comparison to the support against left lane blockers.  A whole lot
of people consider the middle lane of 3 or the middle 2 of 4 to
be "cruising" lanes, or "through" lanes. That's the existing culture, 
not a statement of right and wrong.

The pattern can however be defended, in the sense that good traffic flow
is not disrupted by people doing at or only slightly above the limit
in the middle lanes.  Passers should go to the left, and move back
to the middle when done passing; the left lane should never be
blocked except during times of heavy traffic, or momentarily
while someone scurries to pass.

Dan Hepner

---

From: "John W. Robbins" <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Nov 1995 18:01:39 GMT

[email-masked] (Dave Smalley) wrote:

snip...

>The people I hung out with indicated that one of the most 
>important concepts taught over there [Europe] is lane selection and positioning inside 
>that lane.
>
>Over here in the US we concentrate on speed limits rather than skill 
>enhancement, what a shame.
>

I've been lucky enough to have visited Europe many times and Dave is right,
driving on the autobahn or the Italian autostrada is a true pleasurable driving
experience. It is not for the timid, however. I know that one of these days
I'm going to get tagged with a ticket on my way home from the airport after
having visited Europe. It takes me a couple of days to re-adapt to the US driving
style (i.e. in slow motion).

A couple of years ago, on German television one evening, I saw a one hour
program on driving techniques. They spent a half an hour showing how to deal
with missed off-ramps! They emphatically indicated that backing-up was NOT
an option. In the states, I see people do this all the time. The program went
into all kinds of scenarios - all of which involved options on upcoming offramps.
The program was done local to the city I was staying in and showed how to deal
with these situations for many of the offramps which serve that city. They also
showed how to navigate through some of the more complex interchanges. They
did this using drivers' views, aerial views and computer graphics. Neat idea!
I just wonder if we Americans have enough brain cells to make sense of something
like this...

I remember back in the 60's, one of the networks would periodically run a 
"National Drivers Test" program. Too bad they couldn't bring something like this
back to American prime time TV! If insurance companies REALLY wanted to reduce 
accidents and highway casulties, they should be sponsoring a prime-time driving
skill TV program in conjunction with state and federal governments.

Lets be careful out there - John

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl Bowman)
Date: 17 Nov 1995 09:01:01 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
John W. Robbins <[email-masked]> wrote:
>snip
>"National Drivers Test" program. Too bad they couldn't bring something like 
>this back to American prime time TV! If insurance companies REALLY wanted to 
>reduce accidents and highway casulties, they should be sponsoring a prime-time
>driving skill TV program in conjunction with state and federal governments.
>

I remember picking up tons of valuable driving tips from these programs.  This 
is such a terrific idea that I'm going to contact my insurance company and 
congressman and suggest it.  I suggest everyone who REALLY wants to make a 
change in driver habits push this idea.

Carl Bowman
(I wish I drove as well as I think I do.)
.

---

From: [email-masked] (Lloyd R. Parker)
Date: 16 Nov 1995 10:39:35 -0500

Lord Kittenslayer ([email-masked]) wrote:
: On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Adam Szymczak wrote:

: > My biggest beef: people who insist on driving in the middle lane around 
: > the speed limit on 3 or more lane highways. I have one piece of advice: 
: > MOVE OVER! I hate passing on the right, especially near onramps/offramps. 
: > Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that passing on the right is 
: > illegal in Germany and other European countries.

So why don't you pass on the left if the other car is in the middle 
lane?  After all, that's really what the left lane is for on a 3 or more 
line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

---

From: [email-masked] (Craig Steven Miller)
Date: 16 Nov 1995 19:16:12 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

What you end up with very often, I remember it being especially bad in Florida from 
West Palm Beach to Ft. Lauderdale, is the center lane filled with those traveling 
within 5mph of speedlimit (higher or lower), the left lane with those traveling 
generally at 0 to 10 mph above the speed limit,
and the right lane with those traveling at -10mph upto the speed limit. Those of us 
trying to maintain a safe speed (usually 10  to 15 mph OVER the speed limit) must move 
through whatever openings we can find.

Craig

---

From: [email-masked] (Mr. Damon Kelly)
Date: 16 Nov 1995 16:51:48 -0500

In article <[email-masked]>,
Craig Steven Miller <[email-masked]> wrote:
>What you end up with very often [is with people travelling from -10
>to 10 mph relative to the speed limit from the right to the left
>lanes, respectively.]
>Those of us trying to maintain a safe speed (usually 10  to 15 mph 
>OVER the speed limit) must move through whatever openings we can find.

...Therefore NOT moving with the flow of traffic which
created a hazardous situation.  You can't have it both ways by
requesting that others stay with the flow of traffic when there are a
majority of drivers exceeding the speed limit, then demanding that
everybody speed up when you're travelling faster than the flow of
traffic.

Now, who was driving at a safe speed?

-d

-- 
"Can't murder.  Eating."  -- Homer Simpson in "The Shinning," The Simpsons
Halloween Special V

[email-masked]                                               [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Eric Smith)
Date: 17 Nov 1995 17:53:31 GMT

>Now, who was driving at a safe speed?

There are numerous parties at fault in this situation.  I agree that attempting 
to force your way through thick traffic can be a very dangerous idea (not that 
I haven't done it on occasion, though), but cars that travel side-by-side at 
similar speeds are creating a dangerous situation.  What if one of them blew a 
tire?  Where would he go?  Suppose he hit a patch of ice?  This same logic 
applies to people who flirt too close to semi-trailers.  Those things can't 
stop on a dime, and any idiot who darts in front of one "thinking" that he/she 
is making a smart traffic move is worthy of being run over.  I'm sure truck 
drivers universally despise such people.

Then there is the greater problem of speed differential on our highways.  There 
is a HUGE gulf between the law-abiders and those who aren't.  I am one of the 
latter most frequently, but I do so only when it does not unduly endanger 
myself or other drivers.  Raising the speed limit would probably cause a few 
speeder to correspondingly raise THEIR "regular" speed limit, but not 
a majority. Most of us who speed will find a comfortable speed and stay there. 
Mine is 80mph when my wife is with me, and about 100mph-110mph when I'm by 
myself and on an open road <grin>.  

Raising the limit to, say, 100mph on an open road with relatively little 
traffic would NOT make me drive 200mph-210mph (after all, my Z/28 tops out at 
162mph), but I would continue to stay at or near 100mph.  Also, making a speed 
limit much higher is pretty useless, as the majority of the econoboxes touring 
our highways have 4-cylinder wheezers that are incapable of exceeding 
110mph-120mph.

The end result of "realistic" speed limits would REDUCE dangers immediately due 
to the lower speed differential between the have-guts and the have-nots.

[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Dave Smalley)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:24:08 -500

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.951115163800.27701C-100000@osiris>
> rear-view.  I really wish American drivers were more like that.

I had the supreme pleasure of spending a week in Germany a few years ago. 
Driving the autobahn was amazing. In that whole week I only encountered two 
dork drivers( one looked like a young american female, the other 
turkish/indian). The people I hung out with indicated that one of the most 
important concepts taught over there is lane selection and positioning inside 
that lane.

Dave

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Phillips)
Date: 17 Nov 1995 12:26:30 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Lloyd R. Parker) writes:
|> Lord Kittenslayer ([email-masked]) wrote:
|> : On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Adam Szymczak wrote:
|> 
|> : > My biggest beef: people who insist on driving in the middle lane around 
|> : > the speed limit on 3 or more lane highways. I have one piece of advice: 
|> : > MOVE OVER! I hate passing on the right, especially near onramps/offramps. 
|> : > Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that passing on the right is 
|> : > illegal in Germany and other European countries.
|> 
|> So why don't you pass on the left if the other car is in the middle 
|> lane?  After all, that's really what the left lane is for on a 3 or more 
|> line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

Think about it!  If this is somewhere in the U.S., the traffic in the far left lane
could be running at 15 to 20 mph above the speed limit.  If it is in the Northeast,
where highways tend to carry a lot of traffic at high speed, then the left lane
is usually not vacant, so one has to wait for a "slot."  There are cars that
simply cannot make the jump in speed to fit the slot in the brief time available.  
On the other hand, given that you are moving as fast as or slightly faster than
the traffic in the right lane, the "slots" there are a lot easier to enter,  although
one needs a slot large enough to pass the offending car in the middle lane.  Of
course, when enough people start passing on the right, then nobody can leave the
middle lane because the other two available lanes are moving too quickly.

As you might be able to tell, I've spent some time in this situation, and probably
way, way too much time thinking about it.

-- 
Bob Phillips            NEC Systems Laboratory       VOX:(609)-734-6125
[email-masked]     4 Independence Way           FAX:(609)-734-6002
                        Princeton, NJ 08540

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Phillips)
Date: 17 Nov 1995 12:26:30 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Lloyd R. Parker)
Date: 17 Nov 1995 10:43:50 -0500

Bob Phillips ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Lloyd R. Parker) writes:
: |> Lord Kittenslayer ([email-masked]) wrote:
: |> : On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Adam Szymczak wrote:
: |> 
: |> : > My biggest beef: people who insist on driving in the middle lane around 
: |> : > the speed limit on 3 or more lane highways. I have one piece of advice: 
: |> : > MOVE OVER! I hate passing on the right, especially near onramps/offramps. 
: |> : > Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that passing on the right is 
: |> : > illegal in Germany and other European countries.
: |> 
: |> So why don't you pass on the left if the other car is in the middle 
: |> lane?  After all, that's really what the left lane is for on a 3 or more 
: |> line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

: Think about it!  If this is somewhere in the U.S., the traffic in the far left lane
: could be running at 15 to 20 mph above the speed limit.  If it is in the Northeast,
: where highways tend to carry a lot of traffic at high speed, then the left lane
: is usually not vacant, so one has to wait for a "slot."  There are cars that
: simply cannot make the jump in speed to fit the slot in the brief time available.  
: On the other hand, given that you are moving as fast as or slightly faster than
: the traffic in the right lane, the "slots" there are a lot easier to enter,  although
: one needs a slot large enough to pass the offending car in the middle lane.  Of
: course, when enough people start passing on the right, then nobody can leave the
: middle lane because the other two available lanes are moving too quickly.

: As you might be able to tell, I've spent some time in this situation, and probably
: way, way too much time thinking about it.

: -- 
: Bob Phillips            NEC Systems Laboratory       VOX:(609)-734-6125
: [email-masked]     4 Independence Way           FAX:(609)-734-6002
:                         Princeton, NJ 08540

Except I go about 65 in the middle lane, which is the flow of traffic.  
People will come up behind me with the left lane open for miles ahead, 
and will pass on the right instead.  They often get caught behind a 
slower car, or an entering car, and they get back in the center lane 
behind me and then try to pass on the right again.  I've had people do 
this 4 or 5 times before finally getting around whereas they could have 
passed in the left lane long ago!

And the funny thing is, the medians around here are all concrete barriers,
so radar cops always use the right shoulder.  The cosine angle error will
work more to your favor if you're speeding in the left lane rather than
the right lane.

---

From: John Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Nov 1995 18:02:38 GMT

[email-masked] (Lloyd R. Parker) wrote:
>[...]

  ???
  How can you possibly be going 65, "which is the flow of traffic", 
if you're passing all the other cars on the road?  
  Remember...you said no one is in the left lane "for miles", and you
claim the slower cars are in the right lane.

  Also...which road is this, that carries that much traffic, yet has
a vacant left lane?  I need to start taking that road to work!!!

---

From: John Richardson <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Nov 1995 18:02:38 GMT

???

---

From: [email-masked] (Rick)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:43:53 GMT

>line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

Because the car in the left lane is going the same speed as the car in
the middle lane: slow.  In England, all lanes are passing lanes
meaning that if you're not passing, you must get over:  you get a
ticket for cruising in the center lane.

---

From: [email-masked] (Rex Jennett)
Date: 16 Nov 1995 21:38:54 GMT

The problem with staying in the right lane except to  pass is that most 
people don't know how to merge. I wind up speeding up or slamming on my 
brakes trying to let people merge. They either merge too slow for the 
speed of traffic on the highway, or there's a line of cars trying to 
merge, with no space between them. If drivers would try to bring 
themselves up to speed where the onramp allows it, space themselves so that 
cars in the right lane can merge smoothly with them, then I'd drive in the 
right lane more often. It would also help if drivers already on the highway 
would allow space for cars to merge smoothly. But people seem determined 
to drive bumper to bumper, making merges dangerous and frustrating for all.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 17 Nov 1995 14:15:08 GMT

>to drive bumper to bumper, making merges dangerous and frustrating for all.

I agree with everything that you said.  I generally try to drive in the rightmost
lane possible without excessive lane changing due to slower traffic.  One
problem around the Wash, DC area is that when there is stop-and-go traffic
on, say, I-395 outbound in the afternoon, some people will use the acceleration
lanes to pass a few cars that are stopped in front of them.  Many of these
acceleration lanes are long enough so that the driver that these cheaters 
merge in front of can't tell if they are cheaters or are actually trying to get
onto the freeway from another road.  This makes some (many, perhaps) people
resistant to letting anyone merge in front of them.  I'm sure this must happen 
in other places as well.

-Andy

---

From: [email-masked] (Adam Szymczak)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:13:15 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>line highway.  Why would anybody pass on the right in this situation?

I realized I forgot the following part in the above message.

I would pass on the left hand side except there is a dork in the left 
lane who is doing the same speed or marginally faster (1 km/h more) then 
the dork in the middle lane. What I tend to see is that people drive the 
limit in the middle lane, and that other drivers doing 5-10 km/h more 
will shift to the left lane, creating a line of at least 8-10 cars 
driving in close proximity of each other. And then I see the right lane 
totally empty. What to do, what to do?

I pass on the right. However, I hate that, since most onramps/offramps are
on the right side and there always seems to be some driver that thinks he
can immediately merge into 100 km/h traffic at 90km/h instead of using the
remaining 100-200m of onramp to accelerate to highway speed.

My wife was on the onramp, a very long onramp, to a expressway. The car in
front her was doing maybe 80km/h (not 100km like they should be doing)
when that driver merged right into the highway and almost got runover by a
tractor-trailer. I wonder what those mirrors are for? 

Here in Windsor the expressway is a joke, People treat it as a normal 
city street. They coast along at 80km on an 100km/h highway. Anyways, it 
is also the worst designed highway, and is slowly falling apart.

-- 
Yours truly,

Adam Szymczak, BA		Master of Arts in Geography (Urban Planning)
[email-masked]	University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada