Sri: Srimate Ramanujaya Nama: Respected Adiyaars, As the person who started this topic of discussion, I would like to add a few points. * According to Smt. Sumithra, it is the will of the person who gives food or alms to the beggar. Well, but still the beggar still has to beg for food, right?? Only since the beggar made calls for alms, did the owner decides or does't not decide to give alms. So, the act of the beggar becomes the main cause of food. Considering this example alone, Moksha then becomes Sahetukam (Beggar first makes call for alms, which means Jeevatma surrenders first) * Lets talk about free will for a second. I had submited this point in a private mail to one of the active members of this forum. Let me repost the same point here: If person A is God and person B is the jeeva. A controls B totally. B is totally dependent on A. B cannot do any activites on his own (meaning no free will). This is the scenario. Suppose if B performs something sinful, it is understand that actually it is person A who is actually the doer. Given this, how can person A tell person B, "hey, you have done this and not done that, so you go to hell for that, or undergo karmic reactions for this". Sounds totally illogical, right?? In other words, if A is the ultimate doer of things, how can he ask B to do things like "Ask questions" or "Don't do this" or even "Surrender"?? I mean, isn't it totally illogical if person A even asks B to do anything at all, given that A is actually the doer?? * With respect to Nirhetukam which means, "Causeless Mercy". Well, the same Bhagavad Gita, which speaks about Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and finally Prapatti, somehow fails to talk about the "Causeless Mercy" of the lord. Perumal only says, "surrender, do this, do that". Not in a single verse has he said, "Just surrender unto me mentally and remain a vegetable physically". No. Can I surrender to an Acarya, have Samashrayanam done and mentally pray to Perumal, "I am yours. I have surrendered unto You. Whatver I do, You are the Karta", and then end up watching a nice episode of Seinfeld?? Meaning, does it reflect the traits of a prapanna?? * Based on what has appealed to my logic (which is totally inferior and flawed), I am of the opinion that we do have a bare minimum of free will. Based on that free will, we exercise options, we choose. We choose to surrender or not surrender. If we don't surrender, then again we get lost in this cycle of samsara. If we do surrender, then Perumal grants us Moksha. Like Sri Lakshmi Narayanan pointed out, perumal grants moksha to people are perceived to be undeserving too, like Sisupala, etc. That is his causeless mercy, or Nirhetuka Kripai. Or in other words, Nirhetuka Kripai cannot be perceived to be the ONLY means of Moksham. * The third idea that is suggested is this: We surrender, but still perumal chooses to grant moksha or not, based on his will. I think it is a very dangerous, demotivating point. Historically, there has never been a case in which Perumal had failed to offer Moksha to somebody who had surrendered. He might have tested them, like Sri Thondaradippodi AzhwAr, but had never failed to offer to them Moksha. * The same Carama Shloka ends with the phrase, "Ma Sucah", means "do not fear". How many times has Perumal used words like "Asamsayah" which means, "do not doubt", or even words like "Satyam", which means "Promise"!! The same perumal who has used very powerful, assuring words like the above, cannot fail to offer Moksha to a fully surrendered person. * So, the crux of the matter is this: Instead of just relying on the "Nirhetuka Kripa" of perumal, it is a good idea for us to follow His instructions. Accept an AcAryan. Surrender unto Him. And follow the spiritual practices as laid down by him. Why?? Because Perumal says so. * Well, stickers to the idea of "ONLY-NIRHETUKA KRIPA" can raise this wonderful point: They can say that it is the same Perumal who makes a person surrender unto him. Meaning, if one is even remotely interested in Bhagavath Vishayam, it is just because of the mercy of Perumal alone, or in other words, Perumal chooses his surrenderers. We don't have any free-will, and anybody who even "chooses" to surrender does so because of Perumal's Nirhetuka Kripa. But then the counter-point is that, then Bhagavad Gita is just a stage-show for Perumal. Since, he chooses his prapannas, he is just joking when he says things like "Surrender unto me.." etc. I really hope and pray that my views are not perceived to be offensive to anyone. Illogical, unintelligent and immature, ofcourse!! AzhwAr emperumANAr Jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saranam. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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