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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00158 Jun 2003

 
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Sri:
Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:

> But in the previous sentence you say that Shriman Vishnu didn't
> write anywhere that the Lord "will not" shower His grace on those
> who surrender... God will shower grace on those who surrender,
> but it is upto Him? I see a contradiction(more to come)

> As per AcArya Hrdhayam,all happenings/events like "surrendering" 
> or "non-surrendering" etc is by His grace only. 

> I am referring to the last phrase. Similar to jivatma and achit?
> So, if I understood your statement, Jivatma is like achith to the
> lord right? Then later in the post you are saying 
> If jivatma is like achit, how could it perform some act? How can it 
> even think that it is like an achit, to the lord, when it is "way 
> different" from the achit?

Don't take the words literally! Analogy means "similarity" not 
the "equality". Ok? I'm using the word "simile" not a "metaphor".
Just as I am responsible for the movement of "some" acit items in 
the household(like TV,or cot,microwave or anything),the Lord is 
responsible for my movement,my thinking etc. This is what I meant.
Lord was the one who provided the body,mind,sense organs,intellect, 
breath etc to the "individual souls/sentient/cit". So don't go out of 
this circle to interpret whatever I wrote in the previous article! 

> :)) We need not go upto Bhagavad Gita. Kindly re-read your own 
> statements after thinking for few seconds about "Nammazhwar"!!!! He 
> did not eat, drink. Forget all that. He did not even breath the
> Shata Vayu, and hence his name "Shatakopan". And don't tell me he
> was an exception. If that were so, we should not be discussing any
> further in this list, for Vaishnavism's pride is Swami and his
> works.

NammAzhvAr did all this AGAIN by the Lord's "nirhEthuka krpa" ONLY. 
AH,3rd PrakaraNam,the 15th chUrNikai talks about the Lord's 
greatness,the ten tens(ThiruvAymozhi) and what NammAzhvAr gained 
by the Lord! Sri Azhagiya MaNavALa PerumAL NAyanAr says NammAzhvAr 
gained all those pERus by the Lord's nirhEthuka krpa ONLY. 

> Please come to reality. We are talking something practical. Tell me
> a mother who takes care of a baby 24 hours? Are we taking the
> examples too literally? If so, as per your statements, almost all
> mothers are fools in this world ("only If so").

You're the one who quoted that example. You should have chosen a 
better example. Yeah,unfortunately most mothers are illiterate about 
the sampradAyam and that's why children become confused about what 
to follow and what not to. I can give many examples in my own 
extended family circle(who are all none but come under one of the 
74). Firstly,a mother has to be educated because she is the one who 
carries the baby in her womb for 10x28 days and hence has a 
greater influence on the baby than the father!

> the group. I saw this in the reply to Smt Sumitra's post. She was 
> giving a nice example only to depict a nice concept. You could have 
> seen people being ready to offer to the beggar who is in the next 
> house, but what if the beggar does not come to your house at all
> even though you are ready with the food for him? And if he is
> already gone that you can't find him on the streets? I know my
> statements do not make any sense. But, that is exactly the point.
> These kind of arguments would lead us nowhere.

Smt Sumithra said what she knew. And I said because I felt that was 
not said in AH(I have started reading it everyday and cross check 
with people who are well versed in it!). What if the beggar doesn't 
stop at our doorstep even when I have the food? You can think of 
the Lord KrShNA visiting the Kaurava's camp to make settlement(peace) 
instead of war. If duryODhana told the Lord "Hey,I am for peace,there 
would not have been a mahAbhAratha nor BG". The Lord went in 
person as a messenger and He couldn't change the mind of duryODhana 
or rather He pretended(as He already had chosen the story,how the end 
should be,how the scenes should go etc. He is the Director of the 
play)that He couldn't change duryODhana! 

It's like directing a movie(a rough analogy!). First the story comes 
and the rest later. The story made up by human has flaws and at times 
they may even the change the end of the good story to suit the taste 
of the masses! 

> Wait a minute. On one side you are talking about the lord's
> nirhetuka krupai and say that everything is done by lord and we
> should be like achith. And on the other side you are talking about
> Jivatma, ego etc? What is ego? When Jeevatma doesn't own itself and
> its body, to whom does its ignorance and ego belong to? Doesn't it
> belong to the inner controller i.e the lord? The reader leaving or
> rejecting is all in the hand's of the lord. And you are mixing up
> way too many things. 

I'm not mixing up. WHatever little I know I am very clear about that. 
That's also His grace and I'm ever indebted to that Lord 
nay "emperumAnE RAmAnujA". I should have added my famous statement 
"pORRuvAr pORRattum thURRuvAr thURRattum,pOgattum kaNNanukkE" wrt 
accepting/rejecting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you now understand me?

> Why are you so much bothered when everything is happening because
> of the lord? And why should R list be shut down? Why such extreme
> options?(I am not the moderator and hence, I can't enforce any
> limitation to the group. It was/is just my opinion that these
> rahasyams should not be discussed here and so, ) 

We can talk about mOksham(with the body,he has given),think about 
Him or His bhakthAs with the mind He has given, but we should not 
worry about mOksham because it is not our job to do. I'm not bothered 
about the things but i'm only sharing the views with another 
bhAgavathA. I myself can not stop my action! I didn't enter this 
Ramanuja e-list on my own. It came by itself. What I'm writing now is 
the effect of that!

The moderator is not going to change the rules of the e-list just 
because I said something! I only expressed what is going on in my 
mind!

> We could share the anubhavams of Azhwars, not necessarily too 
> much on the philosophical front. We could share so many interesting 
> bhaagavadha anubhavams. We could just read the Mumukshuppadi 
> Vyakhyanams etc and memorize it and wait for the right moment of 
> interaction with an Acharyan. Initiate new kainkaryams and try to 
> involve everyone in the group. We could discuss about the 
> sampradayam(traditions). 

We can't share the anubhavams of AzhvArs much without knowing the 
meanings of their pAsurams. Frankly speaking,I don't qualify for it.
BhAgavatha anubhavams can be shared. That I agree. May be you can 
start first with your own experience! Discussing about 
sampradAyam??? Be specific about what sampradAyam to discuss,and how?
Is Mumukshuppadi not a rahasyam?? I would ask why should one put 
even that effort of memorizing Mumukshuppadi vyAkhyAnams. Let us be 
like PiLLaipiLLai AzhvAn and wait for an AcAryA like SriKUraththAzhvAn
to salvify us! 

> Someone was asking about Gayathri Manthram and 
> Astakshari? Gayathri Manthram should not be recited by ladies while 
> Astakshari is common for everyone. We could have so many 
> discussions, clarifications, without going into deeper stuffs that
> would a) confuse the layman b) leads to argument alone because
> neither party has been initiated or has properly attended the
> kalakshepams etc. 

Not a bad idea. Now is the time for Moderator to work!

> One can come up with a huge list of what could be discussed. How
> many of us continued on the subject that Shri Varadhan had started,
> i.e sharing of views on Perumal's thirumeni angams? 

One can not talk much about the Lord without seeing that Lord in 
person(theoretically I can speak from my own experiences when I have 
felt Him). To talk about the Lord's parts one needs to know about 
some of our AcAryAs works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are back to square one. But we can always talk about bhAgavathAs. 
I will post tomorrow/Monday about the bhAgavthA from whom I learnt 
kOil tiruvAymozhi. I can even send his picture,and he wears a "pattai 
thirumaN" and looks divinely/godly.

> consistent across. So, if the fate of the group is in the hands of 
> the lord, why would you be bothered about the group losing its
> status to retain the title etc? Why even write up everytime when
> someone says that the Rahasya Granthams should not be discussed in
> this kind of group? 

Don't forget that this group initially was open to only selected few.
The purpose of keeping the title "RAmAnuja whatever" is to 
experience the greatness of the Lord,AzhvArs and AcAryAs 
works,bhAgavathAs anubhavams with whoever is interested in learning 
the same. When we do this,we shouldn't think about our doership. Okay 
how many members constantly contribute to the group? Be any list,this 
situation is faced and there will be only few members who would keep
(jobless!)posting constantly:-) Maybe the moderator should send a 
note asking "how much the discussions have benefitted the members and 
ask them for "feed back" say once in two months"! Then we will come 
to know how much people(new to the sampradAyam)have understood about 
the sampradAyam. 


I'm not a hypocrite. Since I haven't undergone samAshrayaNam I 
don't want to use the word adiyEn. It's understood and implicit that 
whatever I'm writing,speaking etc is because of Him. Why? I did send 
one post quoting Thathva Thrayam but it was not approved(not wrt TT) 
by the moderator(So you don't know what I quoted in that post except 
soundararajan, moderator,me and the Lord). So I told him that it's 
upto him to do whatever he wants. If he accepts my post,well and good 
and if he doesn't, that's also well and good. As I said earlier,I am 
spending my free time in these things instead of indulging myself in 
some mundane things in which my heart and my mind no longer 
lingers!!!!!!!!

> If you say Rahasya Granthams are open for all just because PBA
> swamy and others published those, I am sorry to say, you are
> contradicting the very name of these granthams like "18 Rahasyams"
> etc. Those books are only for reference and not for understanding.
> One can publish dozens of chinese books, that does not 
> mean those are for everyone. And if I read from the book and 
> understand whatever I could(I don't know chinese, so you can 
> imagine). We must understand the reasons behind the books, the 
> publications, the reason behind calling these as Rahasya Granthams 
> etc.

I frankly do not know how granthamAlA office works. It is my father 
who is a great buyer of books. If I visit,I will surely put in the 
suggesion box saying that "they should not sell it to all the 
people whoever enter"! especially to dangerous people like me. I'm in 
poverty and the guy who walks ahead of me keeps all the notes
($100/Rs 1000) in his pocket and that is visible. What do you think 
will be the situation? I will be tempted to rob him! Do you think 
everybody is bad by birth? It is the circumstances/association that 
makes one good/bad. Similarly if you open a bookshop,whoever passes 
by, will be curious,some may enter and some may not. Those who enter 
may again get curious to come across some titles such 
as "Mumukshuppadi or AcArya Hrdhayam"...and may flip through the 
pages and may even buy unless or otherwise the shop-owner says "it's 
only for DISPLAY not for selling". Why not the shop-owner asks the 
customer for "reference"? First of all not everybody buys such books! 
Only those who are starving for spiritual knowledge,those who believe 
in God and not those who believe themselves as God(aham brahma asmi). 


> explains it clear enough. I assume stress should be given at the 
> right place to Smt Sumitra's statement. The stress is on 
> the "kalakshepams or upadesams". When one is directly interacting 
> with an Acharyan, one can ask questions immediately and get 
> convincing replies/clarifications immediately. You "CAN NOT" do
> that via internet posts. 

Very true. But even in person some things can not be clarified
(AcArya may clarify but the disciple may not catch the point or 
appreciate prapatti and so on). Waiting for an AcAryan is great. But 
what am I going to do with the mind which already thinks about Sri 
PiLLai lOkAcAryA umpteen no of times a day??? Do you have a remedy 
for it(to delete the person from the mind)? All my posts are effect 
of the people who occupy my mind! That's why my mind desires to talk 
about SVB! Moderator can only stop me from discussing about SVB in 
R's e-list but not outside of e-list. I'm pretty sure that there are 
many who would accompany me in this task,even if they were not 
allowed to discuss SVB and other rahasyams in R's list.


> Is someone up and ready to share their ideas/opinions on the 
> Bhagavan's Thirumeni? How about "Maivanna Narumkunchi" pasuram,
> that talks about the vadivazhagu(beauty of the form) of the lord
> Rama? Kamban also expresses a lo(s)t on Chakravarthi Thirumagan.
> Let us move on..... At least, I am....

I'm not as knowledgeable as you're wrt AzhvAr's pAsurams. That's 
why I'm still not as comfortable with AH as I'm with SVB. You start 
and I will join you with the Beautiful isolated(my mother hates us 
bringing PerumAL's photo without thAyAr,she would even say that she 
would throw the photo!) kOdhaNda rAma(I have ayODhi Raman also with 
thAyAr and lakshmaNa),in a sitting posture. I don't know about the 
pAsuram you wrote! But I can share my anubhavams of my SriRama. Don't 
question me "why do you say "your" Srirama? You have ego....and 
you're contradicting nirhEthuka krpa!!!" It is with the same internal 
feeling that I write all the posts. Hope you catch this point:-)

PS:Even in direct communication,one can have miscommunication. 
Generously forgive me if I said anything to hurt you,my kid 
brother:-)

AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam
NC Nappinnai






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