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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00160 Jun 2003

 
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> > > If person A is God and person B is the jeeva. A


> controls B 


> totally. 


> > >B is totally dependent on A. B cannot do any


> activites on his own 


> > >(meaning no free will). This is the scenario.


> Suppose if B 


> performs 


> > >something sinful, it is understand that actually


> it is person A 


> who 


> > >is actually the doer. Given this, how can person


> A tell person 


> > >B, "hey, you have done this and not done that, so


> you go to hell 


> for 


> > >that, or undergo karmic reactions for this". 


UNQUOTE:


Dear Sriman Soundararajan,


According to karmA theory, God not only sends US to


hell but also to heaven. But we should not aspire for


either. So it


is He Who is actually making us do and also giving the


results.


That is His lIlA. 


QUOTE:


> > 


> > >Sounds totally illogical, right?? In other words,


> if A is the 


> > >ultimate doer of things, how can he ask B to do


> things like "Ask 


> > >questions" or "Don't do this" or even


> "Surrender"?? I mean, isn't 


> it 


> > >totally illogical if person A even asks B to do


> anything at all, 


> > >given that A is actually the doer??


UNQUOTE:





at more than one place in gItA, He says I am


the actual doer.


For example, SrI rAmAnuja bhAshya for gItA says at


SlOka 9.6, "sakalEtara nirapEkshasya Bhagavatah 


sankalpAt sarvEshAm sthitih pravruttih" which means


"the existence and actions of


evrybody is due to the sankalpa of the Lord Who is


independent of all enitities other than Him".





He can simply take all of us to Vaikunta. But He


will take only when He wishes. As long as we are


alive (at least those


Who believe in Him), He wants us to be in the mood of


paripUrNa SEsha vrutti or complete subservience.


Encouraging us to ask questions, telling dos 


and donts and asking to take shelter in Him, all


are His own ways of endearing us to Him. For Him


whether we do bhakti or karma yOga does not 


matter. he stands as the upAya on His own!


QUOTE:


> > 


> > > 


> > > * With respect to Nirhetukam which means,


> "Causeless Mercy". 


> Well, 


> > >the same Bhagavad Gita, which speaks about Karma


> Yoga, Jnana 


> Yoga, 


> > >Bhakti Yoga and finally Prapatti, somehow fails


> to talk about 


> > >the "Causeless Mercy" of the lord.


UNQUOTE:


SrI rAmAnuja bhAshya speaks of it, though the


AchArya does not use that particular word.


Neither Krishna nor Alwars say "do not pray to


Him, do not choose Him" etc. When Krishna is


starightaway speaking to


arjuna, why should He say "u do all sinful


activities, I will still liberate you?". but 


He even says that! ((at the end). of course, He


does not say "do sins", buT "i will deliver u from all


ur sins".


In our sampradAya, both puNya and pApa are


undesirable (iruvinai) and it is the Lord 


who liberates from such karmAs.


QUOTE:


> > 


> > 


> > >Perumal only says, "surrender, do >this, do


> that". Not in a 


> single 


> > >verse has he said, "Just surrender >unto me


> mentally and remain a 


> > >vegetable physically". No. 


UNQUOTE:


That is how we are supposed to be. That is called


"achitvat pAratantryam" or considering oursleves to be


like a non-sentient object at His disposal.


QUOTE:


> > 


> > > 


> > > Can I surrender to an Acarya, have


> Samashrayanam done and 


> > >mentally pray to Perumal, "I am yours. I have


> surrendered unto 


> You. 


> > >Whatver I do, You are the Karta", and then end


> up watching a 


> nice 


> > >episode of Seinfeld?? Meaning, does it reflect


> the traits of a 


> > >prapanna??


UNQUOTE:


U can pray to Him with or without samASrayaNam!


Actually the "tApa" part of samASrayaNam symbolizes


the achtitvat pAratantryam mentioned by adiyen above.


This means our body and the soul in it are like 


temple vessels with 


chakra drawn on them and are meant only for bhagavad


bhAgavata kainkaryam. 


This is in accordance with how Sri Bhattar defines the


jIva in ashtaSlOkI.





Also dandavath praNAmam or falling like a stick


before elders (prostration) only once, symbolizes


achitvath pAratantryam.


I dont know who is Seinfield. If yo have faith in


the AchArya's words, u will indulge in paripUrNa


SEsha vrtti or complete subservience and hence do


things only in the mood of kainkaryam.


Also AchArya samASrayaNam is not the key but


AchArya abhimAnam or the concern AchArya has for us


and the confidence hegives to us is 


important. That is considered to be uttArakam


(spiritually uplifting) by our AchAryas and not


samASrayaNam.


QUOTE:


> > 


> > * Based on what has appealed to my logic (which is


totally 


inferior 


> >and flawed), I am of the opinion that we do have a


bare minimum 


of 


> >free will. Based on that free will, we exercise


options, we 


choose. 


> >We choose to surrender or not surrender. If we


don't surrender, 


then 


> >again we get lost in this cycle of samsara.


UNQUOTE:


Sri Bhattar says we do not have any free will. It is


the divine 


couple who choose us. That is what Sri Bhattar says in


"Ahur vEdAn 


amAnam..." SlOka of SrI guNa ratna kOSa. 





As I already wrote, if we think we have chosen Him,


we have done 


something to win Him, such thoughts involve ego. That


is why we 


believe that even the belief in Him is out of His


grace. So it is 


a matter of belief and cannot be proved. The concept


of nirhEtuka krpA is logical if we want to 


be wihout any ego (at least on a spiritual platform -


which may 


slowly extend to materialistic platform and transform


us into good 


citizens in the mood of service). If we think sAttvika


ahankAra etc. we can 


have, nirhEtuka krupA is illogical.


As I already wrote, if somedbody knows that He is the


Supreme and 


He is the deliverer, will he still say "I want to


exercise the option 


of keeping away from Him?". So it is a matter of


conviction and not a 


matter of choice. We believe He only gives such


knowledge.


QUOTE:


> 


> > 


> > If we do surrender, then Perumal grants us


Moksha. Like Sri 


> >Lakshmi Narayanan pointed out, perumal grants


moksha to people 


are 


> >perceived to be undeserving too, like Sisupala,


etc. That is his 


> >causeless mercy, or Nirhetuka Kripai. Or in other


words, 


Nirhetuka 


> >Kripai cannot be perceived to be the ONLY means of


Moksham. 


> 


UNQUOTE:


As far as AlwArs and AchAryas are concerned, that is


the only 


means. 


QUOTE:


> 


> > 


> > * The third idea that is suggested is this: We


surrender, but 


still 


> >perumal chooses to grant moksha or not, based on


his will. I 


think 


> >it is a very dangerous, demotivating point.


Historically, there 


has 


> >never been a case in which Perumal had failed to


offer Moksha to 


> >somebody who had surrendered. He might have tested


them, like Sri 


> >Thondaradippodi AzhwAr, but had never failed to


offer to them 


Moksha.


>


UNQUOTE: 


I agree with you on this.


> 


QUOTE:


> > * The same Carama Shloka ends with the phrase, "Ma


Sucah", 


> >means "do not fear". How many times has Perumal


used words 


> >like "Asamsayah" which means, "do not doubt", or


even words 


> >like "Satyam", which means "Promise"!! The same


perumal who has 


used 


> >very powerful, assuring words like the above,


cannot fail to 


offer 


> >Moksha to a fully surrendered person.


UNQUOTE:


He Himself choses such a person, and that person will


not be 


making any effort but simply relying on Him i.e. fully


surrendered, as He 


has made that jeeva devoid of ahankAra and mamakAra.


> 


QUOTE: 


> > * So, the crux of the matter is this: Instead of


just relying on 


> >the "Nirhetuka Kripa" of perumal, it is a good idea


for us to 


follow 


> >His instructions. Accept an AcAryan. Surrender unto


Him. And 


follow 


> >the spiritual practices as laid down by him. Why??


Because 


Perumal 


> >says so.


UNQUOTE:


In our sampradAyam, we need to believe in His


nirhEtuka krupA or 


His being the upAya and upEya. We cannot rely on


anything else. That 


is what AchAryas of our sampradAya preach and we need


to have faith 


in them. 





We have to do anushtAnams or spirtual practices


(vAzhvinai and 


adimai). Wihout anushtAnams, life is considered to be


meaningless 


like u quoted the example of watching some Senfield. 


these 


anushtAnams are meant only for making our life


meaningful. Again 


it is PerumAL who puts us in such SEsha vrtti, says


Bhattar in ashtaSlOkI. 


The only anushtAna we need to do for mOksha is NOT


doing anything 


or NOT rejecting His krupA.


QUOTE:


> 


> > 


> > * Well, stickers to the idea of "ONLY-NIRHETUKA


KRIPA" can raise 


> >this wonderful point: They can say that it is the


same Perumal 


who 


> >makes a person surrender unto him. Meaning, if one


is even 


remotely 


> >interested in Bhagavath Vishayam, it is just


because of the mercy 


of 


> >Perumal alone, or in other words, Perumal chooses


his 


surrenderers. 


>


UNQUOTE: 


That is what SrI rAmAnuja says in gItA bhAshya, for


SlOka 8.14. first he gives a gist of the


SlOka which speaks of the yOgI with his thoughts fixed


on the Lord and syas the Lord is 


easily accessible to him. The SrI rAmAnuja further


explains: "suprApScha tadviyOgam asahamAnah


aham Eva tam vrNE" which means "I, the bhakta sulabha,


only choose the jIva as I am not able to bear 


his separation". The AchArya says perumAL will remove


all impediments for such a chosen jIva.


He qotes the upanishat statement "yamEvaisha vrNutE


tEna labhyah". 


one may ask how He is able to bear the separation of


other jIvas. for this He only knows the reason.


actually that is what SrI nammALwAr conveys thru


"thirumAlirumjOlai" padhigam.


One may please post the meaning of "thirumAl


thanbAl..." pASuram of ThiruvAimozhi nUtthandhadhi.


QUOTE:


> 


> >We don't have any free-will, and anybody who even


"chooses" to 


> >surrender does so because of Perumal's Nirhetuka


Kripa. But then 


the 


> >counter-point is that, then Bhagavad Gita is just a


stage-show 


for 


> >Perumal. Since, he chooses his prapannas, he is


just joking when 


he 


> >says things like "Surrender unto me.." etc.


> 


UNQUOTE:


He is not joking. He is saying take me as your means


for 


liberation (mAmEkam SaraNam vraja). 





I learnt that entire Bhagavad gItA can be interpreted


in 


accordance with divya prabandham. But we need to


approach the right AchArya 


for that. However, a dispassionate self-study


referring to rAmAnuja 


bhAshya (which is very much encouraged in our vaidika


system under 


the name "svAdhyAyam") will greatly help but one needs


to apporach an AchArya


for clarification on certain issues.





AzhwAr emperumANAr Jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saranam.





Dasan,





Vishnu











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