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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00060 Oct 2003

 
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Dear Bhagavatas,
Thank you for your replies. Let me try to address certain things and 
I mean no offence to our acharyas and esteemed members.

1. Vedic texts & Sriram's post:
Sriram beautifully summarized the central issue albeit with a minor 
mistake - that the vedas talk about a "nameless or formless" supreme 
being. Not necessarily and not always. That is a tangential issue 
which we can ignore. The central point is, from vedic texts, we 
cannot objectively examine the contents and conclude 
that "Vishnu/Narayana is the supreme". We need to append Vaishnava 
tantras, azhwar poems and other sectarian puranas to make that claim. 
As Sriram pointed out, if that is not the case, every Vedic scholar 
from Sayana to Bhatta bhaskara to Kapardi swami to Mahidhara would 
have reached the same conclusion. This is ignoring western 
indologists (accused of a hidden agenda?!).

2. Scientists/Azhwar analogy:
This is a weak analogy. Einstein's theory of relativity or 
photoelectricity may be 'complex' for 'lay persons', not intutively 
making sense or even worse contrary to common sense. However, the 
physicists are unanimous on what the theory is about, what it 
explains, and what are its limitations (if any). We cannot make an 
analogy of theory of relativity & Vedic texts and scientists & 
azhwars. Vedic scholars haven't come to a unanimous conclusion 
that 'Narayana is supreme'.

3. Validity of itihasas & puranas:
If we allow puranas as a supplementary source of pramANa, shaivas & 
shaktas would point out their respective sectarian puranas as 
pramANa. If we dubiously proclaim that Vaishnava purANas are sattvic 
and hence only they are to be counted as pramANa, we are in trouble 
again. Naradiya purana, a sattvic purana, at the very beginning 
asserts, "He who is Hari is same as Hara, Shiva. There is no 
difference between them". (At least shaiva puranas are consistent in 
that they proclaim Shiva as second to none and supreme :-) to Brahma, 
Vishnu, Indra and other devas). There are other references to Hari-
Hara identity in 'sattvic' purANas which I didn't bother to catalogue.

To re-iterate, 'Narayana is supreme' is a matter of subjective 
opinion, which is not necessarily wrong. However the claim 
that 'Narayana is supreme and this is attested in the Vedas' can be 
objectively evaluated by examining vedic text themselves.

4. Observation of Indo-Iranian texts - Avesta:
This is a side issue. The Avestan language is very similar to vedic 
sanskrit and the gathas could be translated from avestan persian to 
sanskrit and vice versa with few simple phonetic rules. Besides, a 
lot of vedic deities reappear in Avesta *including vishnu*. ( we have 
to keep in mind though, that daevas are the bad guys and ahuras are 
the good guys).

ahura mazda - asura medhira=varuNa)
mithra - mitra
rashNu - viShNu
verethraghna - vR^itrahan=indra
sraosha - sharva=rudra
vAyu/vAta- vAyu/vata
ardvi sura anAhitA- sarasvati
baga - bhaga (as in baghdad!)

It is interesting to note how the Indo-Iranian religion evolved (in a 
different direction) compared to vedic religion. Varuna is the 
supreme God and Rashnu is a minor deity, and is the judge of souls 
seeking entrance into heaven. In Zoroastrian religion the souls of 
the dead must cross the Cinvat Bridge which links heaven and earth. 
That is where Rashnu guards and makes the soul wait three days, while 
he reviews the records in the book of life where good and bad deeds 
have been recorded.

An indirect evidence that 'supremacy of Vishnu' is a later 'purANic 
evolution' and unattested by Vedic canon (or else, among Indo-
Iranians, Rashnu would have been supreme - not Varuna).

Regards,
Kasturi Rangan .K

{Moderator's note:
The "subjectivity" of the assertion that "VishNu is the Supreme Being" is srI. 
Anshuman's opinion only. That is not an authoritative opinion taught by our 
AchAryAs -

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan}




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