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Swamy!

Pranams!

Your explanation is very opt and should be convincing to them.  God knows
how to convince somebody who is 'not open' and does not qualify to  receive
knowledge of this order. Thanks for giving us a tip which we can use
effortlessly when confronted with them.

In fact, I think by so saying Einstein has opened up many such flow of
thoughts in relation to diverse topics.  OTOH it is also true that these
explanations that we give/accord to those such topics fall well under the
achintya adbhuta shakti of Chit Prakruthi(Lakshmi's) whose real modus
operandi is well beyond the grasp of our mortal indriyas/intellect, then
what to say of Narayana.

Vedas say in no uncertain terms that one who thinks he who says he knows
Parabrahman, is the one who does not know anything abt him and likewise one
who thinks it is beyond his capability to comprehend him is the one who
knows him (if my memory serves right, it is isavasya that say - Yasyamatam
tasya matam matam yasya na veda sah; avijnatam vijanatam vijnatamavijanatam,
pls correct me if I am wrong in quoting upanishat correctly, or is it
Kena?).  So comprehending Parabrahman by Chaturmukha is impossible let alone
we mortals.

My point of view on apourusheya would be something like this:

1. Veda is anadi and nitya like the Parabrahman.  None knows its origin.
2. Veda is pure and faultless as being vouchsafed by specific mantradrastas
of vedas.
3. We cite all those mantradrastas as 'Rushis' and not authors while picking
up relevant stotras being seen by them.
3. Since it is anadi none knows fully the total corpus of slokas hidden in
it at a given point of time/yuga.  It is a huge corpus or knowledge.
4. Due to point 2 above we take it as a Pramana against various other
pourusheya works.  It is the ultimate truth for us.  All the other works
dwelling on truth follows vedas and not vice versa.
5. Veda is faultless because it does not have any doshas that otherwise
affect works which are pourusheya.
6. Hindus gives importance to 'darshana' involving our soul  - 'atmavare
drushtavyo, srotavyo, manthavyo nidhidhyasitavyo'.  Of course, we need to
exhaust our intellect to enable soul contemplate and make amends to 'see'
parabrahman.

It was he from whose breath veda appeared in the beginning. Again who can
sense/feel the full flavour of the veda.  Once again it is next to
impossible(we can cite Bharadwaja's plight and indra's advise in this
regard).  Thus no one can master vedas completely. In fact, as the yugas
pass, the accessibility of vedas also decrease with the decreasing level of
satva in the universe.

I tried in vain to get a full grasp of the tattvas spelt out by Sri
Madhwacharya on Veda being Apourusheya (I heard that it is he who has given
detailed explanation on why it is called as apourusheya) and could not able
to understand the language/purport.  However, I am not feeling let down but
trying to collate sources which dwells on this topic with his followers'
lucid explanations on the same.  Because this is the one topic that
interested many unvedic preachers and atheists against whom Madhwacharya did
aim his pithy statements in support of veda being apourusheya in his Vishnu
Tattva Vinirnaya.

Pls pardon my childish rantings. But your forceful writing is very inviting
indeed even for an ignorant like me.  I would only say I have found out the
ladder and only trying to climb it.  Hence I am convinced that vedas are
apourusheya but need to strenghthen the very thought.


Thanks
sukumar


-----Original Message-----
From: tiruvenkatam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tiruvenkatam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of sudarshan madabushi
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 3:34 PM
To: tiruvenkatam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; srirangasri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [t'venkatam] The Vedas as "apourushEyam": An idea the Western
mind struggles to grasp



Dear friends & members,

Sometimes when I travel abroad (mostly as part of my
job) to parts of the world in Europe or the Far-East
cities, I meet with people in those countries who the
moment they come to learn I hail from India, strike up
a conversation about Indian philosophy, religion, and
spiritualism....

It all invariably starts with their noticing my
vegetarianism at the dinner table. They curiously ask
me how I manage to survive on a strict diet of milk,
bread, butter, jam, corn-flakes and green salads and
soups and then invariably the conversation gradually
veers around to talk of Indian mysticism, the
'kumbh-mela', varieties of Indian gods and
cow-worship....

               ****************

During such conversations, I have always been amazed
how little is the knowledge the average western mind
possesses about the fact-sheet of India's great
religion and philosophy. In comparison, the average
Indian mind's knowledge of Christianity or Buddhism, I
would venture to say, is almost encyclopaedic.

For example, very few commoners in the western world
know anything about the source of all religious
scipture in India -- the Veda. A few of them have
heard of the 'Bhagavath-gita'. The Gita has crept a
little into the common awareness of the west mainly
because it has been popularized somewhat over the
years by serious literary personalities in Europe and
America such as Aldous Huxley, Herman Hesse,
Schopenhauer, Ralph Waldo Emerson and others. But
little do commonfolk in the west know that the Gita
owes its original inspiration to yet another evenmore
ancient source viz. the Upanishads, which in
themselves are again only a sub-text of a vast body of
scriptures known as the Vedas.

                 ***************

When I start explaining to my curious western friends
about the fundamental features of the Vedas, the first
thing to utterly amaze them is the fact that the Vedas
have no human authorship; that there is no one person
who actually wrote it down; that they have all been
bequeathed, from one generation to another, across
millions of years in India through the oral tradition
of learning called "guru-sishyA parampara"
(master-disciple school of oral learning).

When I further explain to them that we Hindus regard
the Vedas as "apowrushEyam"  -- i.e. it does not owe
its existence to any human authorship; that it stands
alone as a self-existent, self-evident and eternal
body of Truth; that it was only been revealed to
ancient seers ("rshis") who merely intuited it all
through spiritual insight gained by years of 'tapas'
(penance and self-sacrifice).... When all this is
explained to them, the western friends cannot help
asking me incredulously, "But how can what you say be
true!"

On my part, I try not to be unduly surprised or
offended by the incredulity of the average western
mind vis-a-vis the very idea of "apowrushEyam". After
all, Christians and Muslims, we know belong to the
religious tradition of "Peoples of the Book" (i.e. the
Bible and Koran) which are sacred scriptural books
which owe their authorship and inspiration to
individuals -- such as the Prophets Mohammed, Jesus,
Moses and others. To the average western mind so
accustomed to its principal Book of scripture, the
Bible, being attributed to authorship by the Apostles
of Jesus, it can be indeed very, very difficult to
comprehend the very idea of "apowrushEyam".

                    ************

To convince yet such incredulous westerners, very
often, I resort to a simple analogy in order to drive
home to them the validity of the idea the Vedas are
"apowrUshEyam". The analogy is borrowed form the
western world -- the world of physics and classical
music -- and then constructed in simple terms, in the
language and idiom of the western world again, so as
to help them relate really well to the idea, to grasp
its essentials and comprehend it thoroughly.

Here is the analogy which I share with you all too in
the hope that you may all wish to ponder upon it and,
if found convincing, may well want to use it yourself
in explaining the concept of "apowrushEyam" to your
own friends and acquaintainces (western and otherwise)
who may appear to you as difficult "doubting
Thomases".

                  ****************

Einstein once said that while Beethoven only created
or crafted his music, Mozart's own was so pure that it
seemed to have been ever present in the universe,
waiting to be discovered by the master.

Einstein believed much the same of Physics too -- i.e.
beyond observations and theory, lay the music of the
spheres which, he wrote, revealed a "pre-established
harmony" exhibiting stunning symmetries. The laws of
nature such as those of Relativity Theory, were
waiting to be plucked out of the cosmos by someone
with a sympathetic ear. Thus it was far less laborious
calculation than the creative or intuitive processes
of "pure thought" to which Einstein attributed his
theories.

Scientists often describe the general relativity
theory as the most beautiful theory ever formulated.
Einstein himself always emphasized the importance of
recognizing the theory's beauty. "Hardly anyone who
has truly understood it will be able to escape the
charm of this theory".

The theory is essentially one man's view of how the
universe ought to be. And amazingly, the universe did
turn out to be pretty much as Einstein imagined.

              ***************

The great Einstein regarded his General Relativity
Theory not as something born out of personal
intellectual effort or inspiration but as Truth which
he happened to "discover" as "pure", "pre-established
harmony".

Einstein held the music of Mozart in the same light.
Mozart's music too was not so much music "composed" as
music "waiting to be plucked out of the cosmos by
someone with a sympathetic ear".

In much the same way above as Einstein regarded his
discoveries in Physics, or he appreciated the music of
Mozart, I explained to my western friends, the Vedas
too -- the principal source and inspiration of all
religious thought and scripture in Indi -- they too
are regarded by the Hindus as "apowrushEyam": in other
words, the Vedas are "so pure that they seemed to have
been ever present in the universe", "waiting (as it
were) to be discovered by the masters" known once in
ancient India as "rshis". The Vedas too are thus "pure
thought"; they are "pre-established harmony" revealing
the great laws and the "stunning symmetries" of the
Cosmos and all Existence.

And like Einstein's theory, I further go on to explain
to my friends, the Vedas too are "essentially one
man's  view -- i.e. the "rshi's" view -- of how the
universe ought to be. And amazingly, the universe did
turn out to be, in several ways, pretty much as the
Vedas and the "rshi-s" imagined"!

                   *************

When I had taken to pains to explain all of the above
to my western friends, it sometimes occured to me that
not withstanding the simple but persuasive relevance
of the analogy, they still went away a little confused
and unconvinced by the thought that anything in this
world could be "apowrushEyam" --- un-authored,
self-existent, self-evident and eternal.

Let us for a moment leave westerners aside; their
incomprehension and incredulity can be quite forgiven.
What about Hindus themselves, I ask? How many of you
are totally convinced and yet not-so- convinced about
the idea?

Regards,
dAsan,
Sudarshan














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