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by Jonathan Robie
August 5th, 2021, 8:55 am
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

How would you understand the example from Proverbs, quoted above? It can't be a PPA by definition. Yet it is a similar construction than in John. It's even more unexpected than this one because it has a telic verb and it's difficult to see how the imperfective aspect could be used at all. So it's a...
by Jonathan Robie
August 5th, 2021, 8:47 am
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

The Greek Septuagint of Prov. 8... 22 Κύριος ἔκτισέ με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ, 23 πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐθεμελίωσέ με ἐν ἀρχῇ, πρὸ τοῦ τὴν γῆν ποιῆσαι 24 καὶ πρὸ τοῦ τὰς ἀβύσους ποιῆσαι, πρὸ τοῦ προελθεῖν τὰς πηγὰς τῶν ὑδάτων, 25 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη ἑδρασθῆναι, πρὸ δὲ πάντων βουνῶν γεννᾷ με. Nice example.
by Jonathan Robie
August 5th, 2021, 8:03 am
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

Now Barry can comment on that himself, but actually he doesn't say that the infinitive would get its time from the main verb. Only that it would show prior action. That's different than getting time from the main verb. A logical companion to "would show prior action" would be that "t...
by Jonathan Robie
August 5th, 2021, 8:00 am
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

The very first step in translation would be to put the clause in standard English word order, which would give the following: I am before Abraham came to be Suddenly the implied echo from Ex. 3:14 is no longer audible (so to speak). I suspect that that's exactly why the text is left at the interlin...
by Jonathan Robie
August 3rd, 2021, 3:03 pm
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

Would anyone be able to tell how to do a search in a publicly available database in extant extrabiblical Koine literature, to search for πριν and προ του? It should preferably have links to texts and translations. Depending on the amount of hits I might want to take a closer look. If there are many...
by Jonathan Robie
August 3rd, 2021, 7:33 am
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

Jonathan None of the examples have a controlling verb that is a linking verb with an unexpressed predicate and at the same time acting as the main verb for the infinitive. But I’ve marked out the controlling verbs for the infinitives anyway with two asterisks. One on each side of the verb. I’ve als...
by Jonathan Robie
August 2nd, 2021, 6:45 pm
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

If we were to read εγω ειμι as having an unexpressed predicate, perhaps Christ or God, then what would the main verb be for the infinitive of the subordination clause? Can ειμι serve double duty as a linking verb expressing identity as well as the controlling verb for the infinitive? This seems ext...
by Jonathan Robie
August 2nd, 2021, 1:02 pm
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

Daniel can you do a search for επιστηκα on Accordance? And perhaps Jonathan Robie can do one on Perseus. I can’t seem to figure out how…maybe it’s because I use my iPhone exclusively. I have been doing my searches on the Lowfat treebanks for the Greek New Testament, not Perseus. I don't know a way ...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 6:17 pm
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

So I looked at this for the NT only (I would like to do a wider check but I don't have the time just now). There are no examples with πρίν. But with πρό τοῦ: “μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.” (Matthew 6:8 Novum Testamentum Graece (New Test...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 5:43 pm
Forum: New Testament
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 149
Views: 1959

Re: John 8:58

The πρίν clause is normal, it means "before", the infinitive + accusative is part of the πρίν construction. This is covered in the "Temporal Clauses" chapter in "The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek". When the matrix clause is affirmative (not-negative), πρίν is nor...

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