Omission of the copula
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Re: Omission of the copula
"Omission": You are right; I just didn't know what header to choose.
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
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Re: Omission of the copula
You can always call it “null copula” or “zero copula.”Jean Putmans wrote: ↑September 20th, 2021, 1:25 pm "Omission": You are right; I just didn't know what header to choose.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Omission of the copula
FWIW, when I lived in Germany this happened all the time - my last name (Robie, one "b") sounds like a first name to Germans and Dutch. But yes, Jonathan is my first name.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: Omission of the copula
Jonathan,
I recognize this:
My name Jean (my mother was a Belgian) is a male name, in the english speaking part of the world it is a female name, so mostly written answers start with something like "Dear mrs. ...."
Germans too never know, how to pronounce my name and whether it's a female / male name (unless they like the Jean Gabin films!).
Regards
Jean
I recognize this:
My name Jean (my mother was a Belgian) is a male name, in the english speaking part of the world it is a female name, so mostly written answers start with something like "Dear mrs. ...."
Germans too never know, how to pronounce my name and whether it's a female / male name (unless they like the Jean Gabin films!).
Regards
Jean
Jean Putmans
Netherlands
gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Netherlands
gotischebibel.blogspot.com
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Re: Omission of the copula
I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
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Re: Omission of the copula
Here are two:RandallButh wrote: ↑September 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
https://scaife.perseus.org/search/?q=%2 ... tances&p=1
Epictetus, Discourses, Book 2 Chapter 19 Section 16 (2.19.16) edition
οὐκ ἄρας ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν παίζεις.
Gellius, Aulus, Attic Nights, Book 1 Chapter 2 Section 11 (1.2.11) edition
δόγμα σαυτοῦ πεποίησαι. Δείκνυε πῶς εἴωθας ἐν πλοίῳ χειμάζεσθαι· γυμνάζεσθαι Arrian. μέμνησαι ταύτης τῆς διαιρέσεως, ὅταν ψοφήσῃ τὸ ἱστίον καὶ ἀνακραυγάσῃς. Ἄν σοί τις κακόσχολός πως παραστὰς εἴπῃ, λέγε μοι, τοὺς θεούς σοι, ἃ πρῴην ἔλεγες, μή τι κακία ἐστὶν τὸ ναυαγῆσαι; μήτι κακίας μετέχον; οὐκ ἄρα γυμνάζεσθαι, Arrian. ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα, καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν ...
αὐτῶν λέγειν‘‘ ἔα, τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοὶ, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ; ἦλθες πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς;”
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Re: Omission of the copula
The following webpage gives some native-Greek examples (plus it has a comment from a certain someone who also posts a B-Greek):
https://danielstreett.com/2012/10/29/jo ... ss-of-tlg/
https://danielstreett.com/2012/10/29/jo ... ss-of-tlg/
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Re: Omission of the copula
I read τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί as a Semitic phrase translating the Hebrew מַה־לִּי וָלָךְ (see 2 Chron 35:21). I don't see why this would exist in classical Greek sources as an expression.Jean Putmans wrote: ↑September 18th, 2021, 10:19 am I mean these specific phrases (τι ημιν και σοι/ τι σοι / τι μοι etc).
I had a look in Mayser Vol II-3 page16 ff: none of the above mentioned phrases are mentioned there (unless I overlooked one).
Regards,
Jean
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: Omission of the copula
Is it really impossible for these authors (who were not from the Classical period) to have been influenced by the Septuagint or to have picked this phrase up from Hellenistic Jews or Christians?Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑September 21st, 2021, 12:59 pmHere are two:RandallButh wrote: ↑September 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
https://scaife.perseus.org/search/?q=%2 ... tances&p=1
Epictetus, Discourses, Book 2 Chapter 19 Section 16 (2.19.16) edition
οὐκ ἄρας ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν παίζεις.
Gellius, Aulus, Attic Nights, Book 1 Chapter 2 Section 11 (1.2.11) edition
δόγμα σαυτοῦ πεποίησαι. Δείκνυε πῶς εἴωθας ἐν πλοίῳ χειμάζεσθαι· γυμνάζεσθαι Arrian. μέμνησαι ταύτης τῆς διαιρέσεως, ὅταν ψοφήσῃ τὸ ἱστίον καὶ ἀνακραυγάσῃς. Ἄν σοί τις κακόσχολός πως παραστὰς εἴπῃ, λέγε μοι, τοὺς θεούς σοι, ἃ πρῴην ἔλεγες, μή τι κακία ἐστὶν τὸ ναυαγῆσαι; μήτι κακίας μετέχον; οὐκ ἄρα γυμνάζεσθαι, Arrian. ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα, καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν ...
αὐτῶν λέγειν‘‘ ἔα, τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοὶ, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ; ἦλθες πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς;”
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
Tel Aviv, Israel
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Re: Omission of the copula
It’s never impossible (what really is?) but these two are good Greek writers which renders a Semitism an unnecessary hypothesisJason Hare wrote: ↑September 23rd, 2021, 2:00 am Is it really impossible for these authors (who were not from the Classical period) to have been influenced by the Septuagint or to have picked this phrase up from Hellenistic Jews or Christians?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia