What was behind my thinking in putting up the third person optative, eg. γένοιτο, which is most commonly used in the negative - μὴ γένοιτο was to look at how it dffers from the third person imperative, where it is obvious that that imperative is actually moving the second person to do something (as opposed to the second person asking / getting the thrid person to do something). An example of this would be Paul telling the believers to make theh word of God grow;cwconrad wrote:I rather doubt that there's anything much to be said about μὴ γένοιτο That's a simple optative of wish, albeit negative, and probably an item of idiomatic expression such as English, "God forbid!" or Bavarian German "Pfuah Gott!" = "Behüte Gott!!"Stephen Hughes wrote:For my own two additions to this list;
- (1) I find that the optative mood in the third person, eg. μὴ γένοιτο is missing here, and
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"I hope / desire / pray that the word of Christ dwell richly in you in all wisdom, as you do {some spiritual things}."Colosians 3:16 RP wrote:Ὁ λόγος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐνοικείτω ἐν ὑμῖν πλουσίως ἐν πάσῃ σοφίᾳ· διδάσκοντες καὶ νουθετοῦντες ἑαυτούς, ψαλμοῖς, καὶ ὕμνοις, καὶ ᾠδαῖς πνευματικαῖς, ἐν χάριτι ᾄδοντες ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ ὑμῶν τῷ Κυρίῳ.
Here the Apostle hopes what will happen as a command, and the force of the command -what they had to do - comes out in the participles, but the outcome of the command - what is to be achieved - is in the command itself.
At the annunciation, the Virgin replies γένοιτο, and it will be God who brings it to pass.
"And Mariam said, Behold, I am the devoted worshiper of the Lord. I accept(?? not sure of the sense) that it should happen to me according to what you have said. And the angel departed from her."Luke 1:38 wrote:Εἶπεν δὲ Μαριάμ, Ἰδού, ἡ δούλη Κυρίου· γένοιτό μοι κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμά σου. Καὶ ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ’ αὐτῆς ὁ ἄγγελος.
Here she seems to agree to the prophesy coming true, and it is the Lord who will do it, so a second person is addressed, and a third person will do it. What will happen is implied in what Mary said, but the way it would happen is not stated obviously here
The basis for my thinking is what markedness do these forms have as compared to the inperatival infinitives, but my ideas on this are in a very early stage of development. Does anyone have something to offer on this?