John 8:58
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: John 8:58
Eeli I was using ειναι for John 17:5 and ειμι for 8:58.
Both ειναι and ειμι are forced choices because of the lack of a perfect. Also ημην isn’t an option because it would signal a past event without continuing results and since the be verb is stative it would signal a cessation of existence.
And I agree that there is a pragmatic understanding of the πριν clause that is acting upon the meaning of the thought being expressed in 8:58…and for that matter in 17:5.
Both ειναι and ειμι are forced choices because of the lack of a perfect. Also ημην isn’t an option because it would signal a past event without continuing results and since the be verb is stative it would signal a cessation of existence.
And I agree that there is a pragmatic understanding of the πριν clause that is acting upon the meaning of the thought being expressed in 8:58…and for that matter in 17:5.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58
A few more useful examples of present tense εἰμί used with aorist infinitives in temporal adjuncts:Daniel Semler wrote: ↑August 1st, 2021, 1:54 pm So I looked at this for the NT only (I would like to do a wider check but I don't have the time just now). There are no examples with πρίν. But with πρό τοῦ:
“μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.”
(Matthew 6:8 Novum Testamentum Graece (New Testament in Greek))
https://accordance.bible/link/read/GNT28-T#Matt._6:8
Actually thinking more about it, this one might not be considered quite an example, as the main verb for the infinitive is perfect in form though present in sense.
John.13.19 ἀπ’ ἄρτι λέγω ὑμῖν πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι, ἵνα πιστεύητε ὅταν γένηται ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι.
Matt.24.6 δεῖ γὰρ γενέσθαι, ἀλλ’ οὔπω ἐστὶν τὸ τέλος.
Luke.3.21-22 καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.
Acts.26.29 ὁ δὲ Παῦλος Εὐξαίμην ἂν τῷ Θεῷ καὶ ἐν ὀλίγῳ καὶ ἐν μεγάλῳ οὐ μόνον σὲ ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντάς μου σήμερον γενέσθαι τοιούτους ὁποῖος καὶ ἐγώ εἰμι, παρεκτὸς τῶν δεσμῶν τούτων.
Hebrews 5:5 Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε
2 John 1:12 ἀλλὰ ἐλπίζω γενέσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα λαλῆσαι, ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν πεπληρωμένη ᾖ.
Rev.1.19 γράψον οὖν ἃ εἶδες καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν καὶ ἃ μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: John 8:58
Not so, and that's what I commented in my earlier post. It's a grave mistake to think that using a certain tense limits how the event happens in the real world. As I said, using imperfect in John 8:58 would work perfectly in both English and Finnish and in many other languages: "I existed before Abraham was born". The same goes for Koine.Scott Lawson wrote: ↑August 1st, 2021, 6:15 pm Also ημην isn’t an option because it would signal a past event without continuing results and since the be verb is stative it would signal a cessation of existence.
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Re: John 8:58
Jonathan you offered these examples and I’ll comment on just the first few. At John 13:19 λεγω is the controlling verb for γένεται and so γένεται has a present tense sense. At Matt 24:6 δει is the controlling verb and γενεσθαι is the complementary infinitive and gets its relative time from the present tense δει. At Luke 3:21 there is a series of infinitives and they all get their relative time from the main verb Ἐγένετο. I was going through your first list of examples and I guess my point is that there doesn’t seem to be an exception to the proposition that the infinitives get their relative time from the main/controlling verbs.
John.13.19 ἀπ’ ἄρτι λέγω ὑμῖν πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι, ἵνα πιστεύητε ὅταν γένηται ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι.
Matt.24.6 δεῖ γὰρ γενέσθαι, ἀλλ’ οὔπω ἐστὶν τὸ τέλος.
Luke.3.21-22 καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.
Acts.26.29 ὁ δὲ Παῦλος Εὐξαίμην ἂν τῷ Θεῷ καὶ ἐν ὀλίγῳ καὶ ἐν μεγάλῳ οὐ μόνον σὲ ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντάς μου σήμερον γενέσθαι τοιούτους ὁποῖος καὶ ἐγώ εἰμι, παρεκτὸς τῶν δεσμῶν τούτων.
Hebrews 5:5 Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε
2 John 1:12 ἀλλὰ ἐλπίζω γενέσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα λαλῆσαι, ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν πεπληρωμένη ᾖ.
Rev.1.19 γράψον οὖν ἃ εἶδες καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν καὶ ἃ μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.
John.13.19 ἀπ’ ἄρτι λέγω ὑμῖν πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι, ἵνα πιστεύητε ὅταν γένηται ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι.
Matt.24.6 δεῖ γὰρ γενέσθαι, ἀλλ’ οὔπω ἐστὶν τὸ τέλος.
Luke.3.21-22 καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.
Acts.26.29 ὁ δὲ Παῦλος Εὐξαίμην ἂν τῷ Θεῷ καὶ ἐν ὀλίγῳ καὶ ἐν μεγάλῳ οὐ μόνον σὲ ἀλλὰ καὶ πάντας τοὺς ἀκούοντάς μου σήμερον γενέσθαι τοιούτους ὁποῖος καὶ ἐγώ εἰμι, παρεκτὸς τῶν δεσμῶν τούτων.
Hebrews 5:5 Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε
2 John 1:12 ἀλλὰ ἐλπίζω γενέσθαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα λαλῆσαι, ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν πεπληρωμένη ᾖ.
Rev.1.19 γράψον οὖν ἃ εἶδες καὶ ἃ εἰσὶν καὶ ἃ μέλλει γενέσθαι μετὰ ταῦτα.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58
Eeli it was recognized that it was bad form to use a past tense when referring to the Eternal or to the gods.
See BDAG under the entry ειμι:
1….Of Christ πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμί before Abraham was born, I am 8:58 (on the pres. εἰμί cp. Parmenides 8, 5: of the Eternal we cannot say ἦν οὐδ̓ ἔσται, only ἔστιν; Ammonius Hermiae [Comm. in Aristotl. IV 5 ed. ABusse 1897] 6 p. 172: in Timaeus we read that we must not say of the gods τὸ ἦν η τὸ ἔσται μεταβολῆς τινος ὄντα σημαντικά, μόνον δὲ τὸ ἔστι=‘was’ or ‘will be’, suggesting change, but only ‘is’; Ps 89:2; DBall, ‘I Am’ in John’s Gospel [JSNT Suppl. 124] ’96).—
BDAG draws a theological implication from the caveat that Jesus is the Eternal due to the use of ειμι at J8:58 which I don’t believe is necessary. But my point is that the use of the imperfect ημην signaled a change of state.
See BDAG under the entry ειμι:
1….Of Christ πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμί before Abraham was born, I am 8:58 (on the pres. εἰμί cp. Parmenides 8, 5: of the Eternal we cannot say ἦν οὐδ̓ ἔσται, only ἔστιν; Ammonius Hermiae [Comm. in Aristotl. IV 5 ed. ABusse 1897] 6 p. 172: in Timaeus we read that we must not say of the gods τὸ ἦν η τὸ ἔσται μεταβολῆς τινος ὄντα σημαντικά, μόνον δὲ τὸ ἔστι=‘was’ or ‘will be’, suggesting change, but only ‘is’; Ps 89:2; DBall, ‘I Am’ in John’s Gospel [JSNT Suppl. 124] ’96).—
BDAG draws a theological implication from the caveat that Jesus is the Eternal due to the use of ειμι at J8:58 which I don’t believe is necessary. But my point is that the use of the imperfect ημην signaled a change of state.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58
I stumbled across this example from Jeremiah, by way of Athanasius , Arians 1:13, which is worth reading on ἐγώ εἰμί I think, though I've not done it myself yet.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑August 1st, 2021, 10:51 am We have to compare this passage with aorist infinitive - which we know to be referring to a past event - combined with πρὶν or προ του. Is a present tense main verb ever used with that construction (well, other than the mentioned Psalm)?
“Πρὸ τοῦ με πλάσαι σε ἐν κοιλίᾳ ἐπίσταμαί σε καὶ πρὸ τοῦ σε ἐξελθεῖν ἐκ μήτρας ἡγίακά σε, προφήτην εἰς ἔθνη τέθεικά σε.”
(Jeremiah 1:5 Greek Septuagint)
https://accordance.bible/link/read/LXX1#Jer._1:5
I think that hits all the points, πρό τοῦ, aorist infinitive, present main verb albeit in the middle.
Thoughts ?
Thx
D
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Re: John 8:58
And my point is that it doesn't. Language just doesn't work that way. I don't give any credence on ancient religional-philosophical discussions about proper theological language when we talk about how (any) language is actually used, although those examples in BDAG could only strengthen my view on this passage if they tell anything about how the ancient people understood it.Scott Lawson wrote: ↑August 1st, 2021, 6:57 pm But my point is that the use of the imperfect ημην signaled a change of state.
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Re: John 8:58
Daniel! That is a great find! It looks to me like the perfect is the preferred tense. We see ἡγίακά used in the second line but with ἐπίσταμαί the perfect might mean stand upon and obviously wouldn’t work. See the conjugations under the entry ιστημι in BDAG below/
Πρὸ τοῦ με πλάσαι σε ἐν κοιλίᾳ ἐπίσταμαί σε καὶ πρὸ τοῦ σε ἐξελθεῖν ἐκ μήτρας ἡγίακά σε, προφήτην εἰς ἔθνη τέθεικά σε.
(Jeremiah 1:5 LXX1)
ἵστημι (Hom.+, ins, pap [Mayser 353]; LXX [Thackeray 247f]; pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog. exc. Ar.) and also ἱστάνω (since I BC SIG 1104, 26 ἱστανόμενος; pap [Mayser, loc. cit., with ἀνθιστάνω documented here as early as III BC]; Epict. 3, 12, 2; LXX [Ezk 17:14; Thackeray, loc. cit.]; later wr. in Psaltes 236) Ro 3:31; Hs 8, 1, 10 (s. Whittaker on 8, 1, 8; s. B-D-F §93; Mlt-H. 202). Fut. στήσω; 1 aor. ἔστησα; 2 aor. ἔστην, impv. στῆθι, inf. στῆναι, ptc. στάς; pf. ἕστηκα (I stand), ptc. ἑστηκώς, ός and ἑστώς En 12:3; JosAs 7:2; J 12:29, -ῶσα J 8:9 v.l., neut. ἑστώς Rv 14:1 v.l. (s. B-D-F §96; W-S. §14, 5; Mlt-H. 222) and ἑστός, inf. always ἑστάναι; plpf. εἱστήκειν (I stood) or ἱστήκειν GPt 2:3, third pl. εἱστήκεισαν Mt 12:46; J 18:18; Ac 9:7; Rv 7:11 (W-H. spell it ἱστ. everywhere); ἑστάκαμεν w. act. mng. 1 Macc 11:34; fut. mid. στήσομαι Rv 18:15. Pass.: 1 fut. σταθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐστάθην (PEg2 65). S. στήκω. Trans.: A. Intr.: B, C, D.
Πρὸ τοῦ με πλάσαι σε ἐν κοιλίᾳ ἐπίσταμαί σε καὶ πρὸ τοῦ σε ἐξελθεῖν ἐκ μήτρας ἡγίακά σε, προφήτην εἰς ἔθνη τέθεικά σε.
(Jeremiah 1:5 LXX1)
ἵστημι (Hom.+, ins, pap [Mayser 353]; LXX [Thackeray 247f]; pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph., apolog. exc. Ar.) and also ἱστάνω (since I BC SIG 1104, 26 ἱστανόμενος; pap [Mayser, loc. cit., with ἀνθιστάνω documented here as early as III BC]; Epict. 3, 12, 2; LXX [Ezk 17:14; Thackeray, loc. cit.]; later wr. in Psaltes 236) Ro 3:31; Hs 8, 1, 10 (s. Whittaker on 8, 1, 8; s. B-D-F §93; Mlt-H. 202). Fut. στήσω; 1 aor. ἔστησα; 2 aor. ἔστην, impv. στῆθι, inf. στῆναι, ptc. στάς; pf. ἕστηκα (I stand), ptc. ἑστηκώς, ός and ἑστώς En 12:3; JosAs 7:2; J 12:29, -ῶσα J 8:9 v.l., neut. ἑστώς Rv 14:1 v.l. (s. B-D-F §96; W-S. §14, 5; Mlt-H. 222) and ἑστός, inf. always ἑστάναι; plpf. εἱστήκειν (I stood) or ἱστήκειν GPt 2:3, third pl. εἱστήκεισαν Mt 12:46; J 18:18; Ac 9:7; Rv 7:11 (W-H. spell it ἱστ. everywhere); ἑστάκαμεν w. act. mng. 1 Macc 11:34; fut. mid. στήσομαι Rv 18:15. Pass.: 1 fut. σταθήσομαι; 1 aor. ἐστάθην (PEg2 65). S. στήκω. Trans.: A. Intr.: B, C, D.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58
Looks like so, although I won't check this carefully soon. I'm of course disappointed because my hypothesis is weakened, maybe disproved.Daniel Semler wrote: ↑August 1st, 2021, 7:21 pm “Πρὸ τοῦ με πλάσαι σε ἐν κοιλίᾳ ἐπίσταμαί σε καὶ πρὸ τοῦ σε ἐξελθεῖν ἐκ μήτρας ἡγίακά σε, προφήτην εἰς ἔθνη τέθεικά σε.”
(Jeremiah 1:5 Greek Septuagint)
I think that hits all the points, πρό τοῦ, aorist infinitive, present main verb albeit in the middle.
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Re: John 8:58
Daniel can you do a search for επιστηκα on Accordance? And perhaps Jonathan Robie can do one on Perseus. I can’t seem to figure out how…maybe it’s because I use my iPhone exclusively.
Scott Lawson