dative of things possessed?

DavidP83
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dative of things possessed?

Post by DavidP83 »

Hello,
I'm scratching my head on the use of dative in the following sentence : "Μακάριος ἤμην εἰ τοιαύτην γυναῖκα εἶχον καὶ τῷ κάλλει καὶ τῷ τρόπῳ" Wallace's grammar "beyond the basics" has a category of dative called "dative of things possessed". Is it the one we are contemplating here ? Thx
Stephen Carlson
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

No, it's a dative of respect/reference. It qualifies the kind of woman to one of both beauty and character.

As for a dative of thing possessed, Wallace (p. 151) says it is "exceedingly rare" and admits it is a "debatable category," with no clear example in the NT (though here you are quoting Hermas).
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Jonathan Robie
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Carlson wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:52 am No, it's a dative of respect/reference. It qualifies the kind of woman to one of both beauty and character.

As for a dative of thing possessed, Wallace (p. 151) says it is "exceedingly rare" and admits it is a "debatable category," with no clear example in the NT (though here you are quoting Hermas).
Yes, here's one place where you can see the quotation in context:

https://jtauber.github.io/apostolic-fat ... pherd.html
ταύτης οὖν ἰδὼν τὸ κάλλος διελογιζόμην ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ μου λέγων· Μακάριος ἤμην, εἰ τοιαύτην γυναῖκα εἶχον καὶ τῷ κάλλει καὶ τῷ τρόπῳ. μόνον τοῦτο ἐβουλευσάμην, ἕτερον δὲ οὐδὲ ἕν.
The verb of possession here is ἔχω, to have, and the object of that verb is γυναῖκα, which is accusative: εἰ τοιαύτην γυναῖκα εἶχον. The dative is a dative of respect. "How blessed I would be if I had such a wife of beauty and character".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

You might think of semantic categories for the cases as "training wheels" on a bicycle. First you learn them to keep you steady and then you forget them. They are not "science" and are disposable.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
DavidP83
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by DavidP83 »

thank you very much to both of you
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

The dative of possession may be rare or non-existent in the GNT, but it's pretty common elsewhere in ancient Greek. Here is how it's introduced in Crosby and Schaeffer, my beginning Greek text:

Dative of possession. In English we say There is no lid to the box. The Latin says Puero est gladius, the boy has a sword. So in Greek the dative is used to denote the possessor, while the thing possessed is subject of the verb to be:

φυλακὴ οὐκ ἦν τῇ κὠμῃ, the village had no garrison.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stephen Carlson
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 11:28 am The dative of possession may be rare or non-existent in the GNT, but it's pretty common elsewhere in ancient Greek.
We’re not talking about the “dative of possession,” which is not uncommon, but the “dative of the thing possessed,” which is kind of the opposite (the dative marking not the possessor but the possessum) and rare. I’m 85% sure it’s a bogus category.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Stephen Carlson wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:25 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 11:28 am The dative of possession may be rare or non-existent in the GNT, but it's pretty common elsewhere in ancient Greek.
We’re not talking about the “dative of possession,” which is not uncommon, but the “dative of the thing possessed,” which is kind of the opposite (the dative marking not the possessor but the possessum) and rare. I’m 85% sure it’s a bogus category.
I am not able to find it in any grammar that I have access to.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stephen Carlson
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 11:27 am
Stephen Carlson wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:25 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 11:28 am The dative of possession may be rare or non-existent in the GNT, but it's pretty common elsewhere in ancient Greek.
We’re not talking about the “dative of possession,” which is not uncommon, but the “dative of the thing possessed,” which is kind of the opposite (the dative marking not the possessor but the possessum) and rare. I’m 85% sure it’s a bogus category.
I am not able to find it in any grammar that I have access to.
It's in Wallace.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: dative of things possessed?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Stephen Carlson wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 4:37 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 11:27 am
Stephen Carlson wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 4:25 pm

We’re not talking about the “dative of possession,” which is not uncommon, but the “dative of the thing possessed,” which is kind of the opposite (the dative marking not the possessor but the possessum) and rare. I’m 85% sure it’s a bogus category.
I am not able to find it in any grammar that I have access to.
It's in Wallace.
Oh, good grief of course it's in Wallace. I obviously meant other grammars.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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