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1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 6th, 2015, 10:45 am
by Stephen Hughes
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 wrote:Τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας· 4 εἰδέναι ἕκαστον ὑμῶν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κτᾶσθαι ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ τιμῇ, 5 μὴ ἐν πάθει ἐπιθυμίας, καθάπερ καὶ τὰ ἔθνη τὰ μὴ εἰδότα τὸν θεόν·
What sort of instruction, knowledge, perception or experience would "normally" lead to someone "knowing how to" do something in circumstances when it was felt appropriate to use εἰδέναι (οἶδα) for the verb of "knowing how to"?
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 6th, 2015, 1:25 pm
by cwconrad
Stephen Hughes wrote:1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 wrote:Τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας· 4 εἰδέναι ἕκαστον ὑμῶν τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κτᾶσθαι ἐν ἁγιασμῷ καὶ τιμῇ, 5 μὴ ἐν πάθει ἐπιθυμίας, καθάπερ καὶ τὰ ἔθνη τὰ μὴ εἰδότα τὸν θεόν·
What sort of instruction, knowledge, perception or experience would "normally" lead to someone "knowing how to" do something in circumstances when it was felt appropriate to use εἰδέναι (οἶδα) for the verb of "knowing how to"?
πῶς γὰρ κτᾶται τις τὸ
savoir faire;
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 6th, 2015, 7:12 pm
by Stephen Hughes
cwconrad wrote:πῶς γὰρ κτᾶται τις τὸ savoir faire;
Of course there is only a little that can be gained from the meaning of the word εἰδέναι (as a rough indication of the entire social training in conformity to the social standards of τιμή with the added Christian standard of ἁγιασμός) from just the dictionary.
In your "κτᾶται ... τὸ savoir faire", do you see the classical distinction κτᾶται / κέκτηται surviving into New Testament times? If there was still a sharp distinction, I would have expected "τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κέκτησθαι". If the choice of κτᾶσθαι was made deliberately self-control may be seen as an ongoing development.
The "πάθος ἐπιθυμίας" of verse 5 sounds like the "Blue Lagoon" awakening (naturalness of ἔρως) that we find expressed in this work of Longus' (and inevitability of ἔρως of the short stories of Parthenius among others). The know-how (your τὸ savoir faire) expressed in Longus seems to
experiential or even
instinctive realisations (especially for the character Chloe).
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 7th, 2015, 7:48 am
by cwconrad
Stephen Hughes wrote:cwconrad wrote:πῶς γὰρ κτᾶται τις τὸ savoir faire;
Of course there is only a little that can be gained from the meaning of the word εἰδέναι (as a rough indication of the entire social training in conformity to the social standards of τιμή with the added Christian standard of ἁγιασμός) from just the dictionary.
Well, BDAG does indicate that εἰδέναι is used in this sense. My comment was intended to suggest, as you also seem to be indicating, that selection of a mate would be an aspect of ordinary education and socialization.
Stephen Hughes wrote:In your "κτᾶται ... τὸ savoir faire", do you see the classical distinction κτᾶται / κέκτηται surviving into New Testament times? If there was still a sharp distinction, I would have expected "τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κέκτησθαι". If the choice of κτᾶσθαι was made deliberately self-control may be seen as an ongoing development.
I see no reason to suppose that κτᾶσθαι here means "possess" rather than "acquire." BDAG seems to indicate that it is still the perfect κεκτῆσθαι is used in the sense of "possess."
Stephen Hughes wrote:The "πάθος ἐπιθυμίας" of verse 5 sounds like the "Blue Lagoon" awakening (naturalness of ἔρως) that we find expressed in this work of Longus' (and inevitability of ἔρως of the short stories of Parthenius among others). The know-how (your τὸ savoir faire) expressed in Longus seems to experiential or even instinctive realisations (especially for the character Chloe).
While the literary texts to which you refer may offer that perspective, I thought that Fredrickson's paper to which you referred in a PM (
http://wordandworld.luthersem.edu/conte ... ickson.pdf) was right on target in putting this 1 Thess text into its 1st century Hellenistic social context. I take the πάθος ἐπιθυμίας of verse 5 as "impulsive lust."
For what it's worth, this verse and its vocabulary and interpretation have been discussed at least twice in earlier years on the old B-Greek mailing list; I had two posts on the matter myself:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 21814.html
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 21820.html
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 7th, 2015, 10:03 am
by Stephen Hughes
cwconrad wrote:While the literary texts to which you refer may offer that perspective, I thought that Fredrickson's paper to which you referred in a PM (
http://wordandworld.luthersem.edu/conte ... ickson.pdf) was right on target in putting this 1 Thess text into its 1st century Hellenistic social context. I take the πάθος ἐπιθυμίας of verse 5 as "impulsive lust."
As in so many second language learning situations texts in another language are not so readily filtered as are ones in languages that we are accustomed to reading. Fredrickson's paper was one that I found to give a different perspective on the Hellenistic attitude to the subject matter of Longus' work. While of course Fredrickson's paper is Paul's "position" in the Hellenistic context, and is not about how Christians are to arrive at the ideal, that is an interesting point that impacts on the meaning of εἰδέναι. As with some other areas where the English and Greek synonym sets do not map well between the two languages, the "know" verbs have been dealt with various times. "Know how" is sort of an extension of that. It seems like an interesting thing to look at briefly.
cwconrad wrote:In your "κτᾶται ... τὸ savoir faire", do you see the classical distinction κτᾶται / κέκτηται surviving into New Testament times? If there was still a sharp distinction, I would have expected "τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κέκτησθαι". If the choice of κτᾶσθαι was made deliberately self-control may be seen as an ongoing development.
I see no reason to suppose that κτᾶσθαι here means "possess" rather than "acquire." BDAG seems to indicate that it is still the perfect κεκτῆσθαι is used in the sense of "possess."
That use of the perfect must be referring to instances outside the New Testament. The question arises then about whether there are two aspects or three in Greek - at what point in the process of acquisition and possession does "acquire" mean "possess"? Sounds a bit like I want to hype up the uncertainty to stifle discussion, but that's not the case. Ultimately the perfect is
lost or replaced by the "ἔχει + inf.".
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 7th, 2015, 10:45 am
by cwconrad
Stephen Hughes wrote:cwconrad wrote:In your "κτᾶται ... τὸ savoir faire", do you see the classical distinction κτᾶται / κέκτηται surviving into New Testament times? If there was still a sharp distinction, I would have expected "τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σκεῦος κέκτησθαι". If the choice of κτᾶσθαι was made deliberately self-control may be seen as an ongoing development.
I see no reason to suppose that κτᾶσθαι here means "possess" rather than "acquire." BDAG seems to indicate that it is still the perfect κεκτῆσθαι is used in the sense of "possess."
That use of the perfect must be referring to instances outside the New Testament. The question arises then about whether there are two aspects or three in Greek - at what point in the process of acquisition and possession does "acquire" mean "possess"? Sounds a bit like I want to hype up the uncertainty to stifle discussion, but that's not the case. Ultimately the perfect is
lost or replaced by the "ἔχει + inf.".
Hmm, "sounds" to me more like you want to hype up the uncertainty to
extend discussion.
It is true, of course, that the perfect of this verb doesn't appear in the GNT, but I see no reason to suppose that the usage is not comparable to usage of εἰδέναι or of ἑστηκέναι as "present" tenses, or that the verb functions differently in present and perfect tenses from the way it functioned in the frequent occurences of Xenophon's
Oeconomicus. It's true that Lk 18:12 could be using the present tense (ἀποδεκατῶ πάντα ὅσα κτῶμαι) in the sense, "possess," but it could just as well mean, "I give a tenth of everything that comes into my possession (i.e., of my income)."
Re: 1Thess.4:3-5 εἰδέναι (+inf.) "know how to"
Posted: March 7th, 2015, 10:55 am
by Stephen Hughes
cwconrad wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:Sounds a bit like I want to hype up the uncertainty to stifle discussion, but that's not the case.
Hmm, "sounds" to me more like you want to hype up the uncertainty to
extend discussion.
