The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
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The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tells his disciples that the Gentiles “δοκοῦσιν . . . ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται.” BDAG glosses “ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν” as “with their many words” (s.v. πολυλογία), translating ἐν as “with,” which is one of the more common meanings of ἐν. However, towards the end of BDAG’s entry for ἐν (s.v. no. 9 [of 12]), the meaning of ἐν is given as “because of, on account of.” Matt 6:7 is then glossed in 9a as “because of their many words.” BDAG thus clearly equates “with their many words” to “because of their many words.” Thus “with” is alleged to have the meaning “because of.”
But is this correct? The answer is yes: The Oxford English Dictionary indicates that “with” can mean “in consequence of, as a result of, by the action of, because of,” etc. Nevertheless, this meaning is rare; it is no. 39 of 40. In the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.), this meaning is not even listed. Consequently, it would probably be appropriate to change the gloss in BDAG (s.v. πολυλογία) from “with” to “because of.”
But what about Bible translations? A quick search of various translations shows that “with” is not used. This seems appropriate because “with” so rarely means “because of.” The most commonly used word is “for.” For example, the NASB renders the phrase “they [the Gentiles] suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” Is this any better? According to the OED, the preposition “for” may mean “because of, on account of” (s.v. no. 21 [of 31]) or “in consequence of, by reasons of” (s.v. no. 22). Thus “for” meaning “because of” is also rare in English.
This begs a final question: When considering the best translation for ἐν in this verse, is it better to translate it with a very clear equivalent (“because of” or “on account of”), or with “for” or “with” (which can mean “because of,” but which usually do not)? In the first place, the translation is very clear; in the second case, a rare use of the preposition ἐν (“because of”) is rendered into English using a preposition (“for” or “with”) that similarly rarely means “because of.” Is the second translation thus “closer” to the original? Any thoughts?
But is this correct? The answer is yes: The Oxford English Dictionary indicates that “with” can mean “in consequence of, as a result of, by the action of, because of,” etc. Nevertheless, this meaning is rare; it is no. 39 of 40. In the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.), this meaning is not even listed. Consequently, it would probably be appropriate to change the gloss in BDAG (s.v. πολυλογία) from “with” to “because of.”
But what about Bible translations? A quick search of various translations shows that “with” is not used. This seems appropriate because “with” so rarely means “because of.” The most commonly used word is “for.” For example, the NASB renders the phrase “they [the Gentiles] suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” Is this any better? According to the OED, the preposition “for” may mean “because of, on account of” (s.v. no. 21 [of 31]) or “in consequence of, by reasons of” (s.v. no. 22). Thus “for” meaning “because of” is also rare in English.
This begs a final question: When considering the best translation for ἐν in this verse, is it better to translate it with a very clear equivalent (“because of” or “on account of”), or with “for” or “with” (which can mean “because of,” but which usually do not)? In the first place, the translation is very clear; in the second case, a rare use of the preposition ἐν (“because of”) is rendered into English using a preposition (“for” or “with”) that similarly rarely means “because of.” Is the second translation thus “closer” to the original? Any thoughts?
Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
In general, Wesley, we concern ourselves less with issues of translation here than we do in actually understanding the Greek, which you do quite well here. My initial thought is that if "with" or "for" can mean "because of" as often as ἐν means "because of," why not use one of these prepositions in English? The Greek reader would pick up the meaning of the preposition from context, and similarly the English reader should be able to pick the usage of "with" or "for" from context. If Matthew had wished to be as specific as the English "because of" he could have written διὰ τὴν πολυλογίαν...
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Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
Mt. 6:7 Προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε ὥσπερ οἱ ἐθνικοί, δοκοῦσιν γὰρ ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται.
Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
I recall taking note, when I started reading the GNT more extensively (after years of concentration on earlier Greek), how commonly the preposition ἐν is employed in NT Koine in the instrumental sense. The instrumental usage in Greek can certainly be conveyed in several different ways in English. This might be one of those instances in which an interlinear's gloss won't be helpful.BDAG, s.v. ἐν wrote:5. marker introducing means or instrument, with, a construction that begins w. Homer (many examples of instrumental ἐν in Radermacher’s edition of Ps.-Demetr., Eloc. p. 100; Reader, Polemo p. 258) but whose wide currency in our lit. is partly caused by the infl. of the LXX, and its similarity to the Hebr. constr. w. בְּ (B-D-F §219; Mlt. 104; Mlt-H. 463f; s. esp. M-M p. 210).
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
It depends on the interlinear. One tied to a particular translation, like the NET, would have an instrumental gloss ("by"). Tied to the NRSV or the NIV, it would have "because of". Tied to the NASB, it would have "for". On the other hand, an interlinear with a concordant glossing strategy that endeavors for one-to-one mappings, e.g., ἐν always as "in," without regard to the context, is not only unhelpful but actively misleading. But I submit the bigger problem here is a poor semantic theory underlying this concordant glossing: polysemous words like ἐν simply don't have a single gloss that works in all contexts.cwconrad wrote:I recall taking note, when I started reading the GNT more extensively (after years of concentration on earlier Greek), how commonly the preposition ἐν is employed in NT Koine in the instrumental sense. The instrumental usage in Greek can certainly be conveyed in several different ways in English. This might be one of those instances in which an interlinear's gloss won't be helpful.BDAG, s.v. ἐν wrote:5. marker introducing means or instrument, with, a construction that begins w. Homer (many examples of instrumental ἐν in Radermacher’s edition of Ps.-Demetr., Eloc. p. 100; Reader, Polemo p. 258) but whose wide currency in our lit. is partly caused by the infl. of the LXX, and its similarity to the Hebr. constr. w. בְּ (B-D-F §219; Mlt. 104; Mlt-H. 463f; s. esp. M-M p. 210).
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
Perhaps you could think of time spatially.
During the course of a long prayer, different prepositions could mean different things. If it had been διά, then we could understand it as they go through great long prayers. ἐν suggests that even though they don't know the will or mind of God, hopefully something in what they have said hits the spot or attracts the attention of God to answer them.
During the course of a long prayer, different prepositions could mean different things. If it had been διά, then we could understand it as they go through great long prayers. ἐν suggests that even though they don't know the will or mind of God, hopefully something in what they have said hits the spot or attracts the attention of God to answer them.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
Well, yes ... and during the course of Eph 1:3-14 one does get just that impression from the recurrent use of καθώς and ἐν ᾧ. I marvel too, at how the Pauline phrase ἐν Χριστῷ, the Greek usage of which has never been clarified to everybody's full satisfaction, has nevertheless won a standard English phrasing and a widespread usage which may or may not have anything to do with Paul's usage in the Greek text.Stephen Hughes wrote:Perhaps you could think of time spatially.
During the course of a long prayer, different prepositions could mean different things. If it had been διά, then we could understand it as they go through great long prayers. ἐν suggests that even though they don't know the will or mind of God, hopefully something in what they have said hits the spot or attracts the attention of God to answer them.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
I mean go back to thinking temporally after thinking spatially. I am suggesting this as alternative to consider, not pushing it as the "right" answer.cwconrad wrote:Well, yes ... and during the course of Eph 1:3-14 one does get just that impression from the recurrent use of καθώς and ἐν ᾧ. I marvel too, at how the Pauline phrase ἐν Χριστῷ, the Greek usage of which has never been clarified to everybody's full satisfaction, has nevertheless won a standard English phrasing and a widespread usage which may or may not have anything to do with Paul's usage in the Greek text.Stephen Hughes wrote:Perhaps you could think of time spatially.
During the course of a long prayer, different prepositions could mean different things. If it had been διά, then we could understand it as they go through great long prayers. ἐν suggests that even though they don't know the will or mind of God, hopefully something in what they have said hits the spot or attracts the attention of God to answer them.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
Sorry, I thought we were talking about instrumental uses of ἐν. As for space and time, I'd think it's the traditional locative usage of the dative that's involved; English "at" does pretty good service for both the temporal and spatial senses.Stephen Hughes wrote:I mean go back to thinking temporally after thinking spatially. I am suggesting this as alternative to consider, not pushing it as the "right" answer.cwconrad wrote:Well, yes ... and during the course of Eph 1:3-14 one does get just that impression from the recurrent use of καθώς and ἐν ᾧ. I marvel too, at how the Pauline phrase ἐν Χριστῷ, the Greek usage of which has never been clarified to everybody's full satisfaction, has nevertheless won a standard English phrasing and a widespread usage which may or may not have anything to do with Paul's usage in the Greek text.Stephen Hughes wrote:Perhaps you could think of time spatially.
During the course of a long prayer, different prepositions could mean different things. If it had been διά, then we could understand it as they go through great long prayers. ἐν suggests that even though they don't know the will or mind of God, hopefully something in what they have said hits the spot or attracts the attention of God to answer them.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: The translation of "ἐν" in Matt 6:7
I think that a generalisation of that sort can't go deeper than aspect. Consider the tenses here:cwconrad wrote:As for space and time, I'd think it's the traditional locative usage of the dative that's involved; English "at" does pretty good service for both the temporal and spatial senses.
Jesus wasn't born over a long time, or on every day, but rather on one of them.Matthew 2:1 wrote:Τοῦ δὲ Ἰησοῦ γεννηθέντος ἐν Βηθλεὲμ τῆς Ἰουδαίας, ἐν ἡμέραις Ἡρῴδου τοῦ βασιλέως
γεννηθέντος is aorist.
The pregnancies and times of breast-feeding could extend over all or a number of the days.Οὐαὶ δὲ ταῖς ἐν γαστρὶ ἐχούσαις καὶ ταῖς θηλαζούσαις ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις.
ἐχούσαις and θηλαζούσαις are present
Taking that as an example, we could look at this verse. With the two aspects in Matthew 6:7 δοκοῦσιν γὰρ ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται
I think the δοκοῦσιν - "It seems to them", "they think" is left of the ὅτι, but εἰσακουσθήσονται is relevant. What is the aspect of the future? Difficult question. I think that to verbalise the prepositional phrase ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ it would be imperfect ἔλεγον πολλά.
The question of whether εἰσακουσθήσονται refers to the people (as they were praying) or to their prayers (as the people were praying them) is another point. I prefer that it refers to the αἱ προσευχαί implied by the Προσευχόμενοι at the beginning of the verse because of the ὅτι that separated the subjects.
I guess from context that the hearing was once, so that could be paraphrased (falsely) into the past tense, where aspct is most clearly marked, as something like προσευχόντων πολλὰ τῶν ἐθνῶν αἱ προσευχαὶ εἰσηκουσθησαν, or something less cumbersome.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)