Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by Jonathan Robie »

S Walch wrote: July 28th, 2023, 6:30 pm Have finished reading this book now. It truly is a great book, very highly informative about the respective Discourse Markers (DM) as used in the Papyri and LXX. Lots of new terminology to get to grips with if you're not used to this sort of book, but nothing overwhelming in my opinion.
OK, I bought it and am reading it now.
S Walch wrote: July 28th, 2023, 6:30 pmThough Fresch doesn't discuss it, his discussion on DMs sort of argues against the popular interlinear paradigm as it pertains to how the LXX books were translated - for them to have used the DMs the way they did, the translators were far more involved in understanding the text and getting it across in good Greek idiom than an interlinear-style translation would have done.
This is clear from the start. On page 4, he says this - in the following paragraph, DMs means "Discourse Markers", which are a good indicator of knowing and using the fine points of a language:
Concerning my second purpose, DMs are often used in the LXX even when not lexically motivated by a translator’s Vorlage. Even when the DM can be argued as representing a feature of the underlying Hebrew, it is often the case that it is but one of multiple viable options. This is significant. Such uses evince contextually motivated decisions on the part of the translators and provide insight into how they themselves conceived of the flow and structure of the discourse. In other words, in the LXX, DMs are often motivated by reasons other than lexemic representation and thus witness to the translators’ own conception of the discourse and their desire to explicitly represent that conception. Because of this, I find DMs to be crucial in the study of translation technique.

Fresch, Christopher J. . Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive-Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique (p. 4). SBL Press. Kindle Edition.
He is saying they aren't just woodenly translating the Hebrew, they are thinking about what it means and how best to convey it in Greek, including the bits of the language that most of us are not consciously aware of, and getting it right.

He uses this definition of Discourse Marker:
Instead, as Maj-Britt Mosegaard Hansen explains, the category of DM comprises any linguistic item that is used to provide “instructions to the hearer on how to integrate their host utterance into a developing mental model of the discourse in such a way as to make that utterance appear optimally coherent.” Discourse markers can include everything from particles and conjunctions to idiomatic phrases and even prosodic contours.

...

They may be thought of as linguistic road signs—they aid the reader in navigating the discourse, informing them of the structure of the text, alerting them to what is coming, and providing them with instructions on how to proceed.

Fresch, Christopher J. . Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive-Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique (p. 4). SBL Press. Kindle Edition.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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James Spinti
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by James Spinti »

Thanks. I'll forward that to SBL Press.

If you only found one, then I'm happily surprised!

James
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mikeatnip
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by mikeatnip »

How much overlap does this book have with Discourse Features of NT Greek by Levinsohn? I am starting to work through this book. Of course, Levinsohn is NT and Fresch is LXX, but my question is whether the same principles are expounded? I would jump for the Fresch book, but the price tag makes me wince and groan a little. :cry:
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by Jonathan Robie »

mikeatnip wrote: July 30th, 2023, 10:19 pm How much overlap does this book have with Discourse Features of NT Greek by Levinsohn? I am starting to work through this book. Of course, Levinsohn is NT and Fresch is LXX, but my question is whether the same principles are expounded? I would jump for the Fresch book, but the price tag makes me wince and groan a little. :cry:
I paid $50 for a Kindle copy.

What works for me may not be what works for you. My personal take:

1. Stephen Levinsohn has done groundbreaking work here. I wish I had been able to attend his workshops, I think it can be hard to grasp some of this from his books alone.
2. Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament is a lot easier to understand than Levinsohn, and has made discourse accessible to a much wider audience.
3. For most mere mortals approaching this, it's extremely helpful to have a Greek New Testament marked with discourse features by experts. Logos is currently the best way to view Levinsohn's discourse features. Our own Macula also shows discourse features, using the same data. We will be improving the way it is displayed, and this is available for free. Watch this space.
4. Fresch takes all of this a step further. It's accessible like Runge, and very much on the same page. It applies it to a new corpus. He describes things from a different perspective, which is helpful. He provides evidence from the papyrii and from LXX translation choices that give further evidence for the kinds of things Levinsohn and Runge are saying.

So if you aren't already expert in discourse features, I would start with Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament and find some way to see how experts have identified discourse features in real texts. I would read papers in which Levinsohn describes discourse of specific passages. But I think Fresch is right up there, an extremely useful resource, at least for me.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
mikeatnip
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by mikeatnip »

Jonathan Robie wrote: July 31st, 2023, 9:08 am
mikeatnip wrote: July 30th, 2023, 10:19 pm How much overlap does this book have with Discourse Features of NT Greek by Levinsohn? I am starting to work through this book. Of course, Levinsohn is NT and Fresch is LXX, but my question is whether the same principles are expounded? I would jump for the Fresch book, but the price tag makes me wince and groan a little. :cry:
I paid $50 for a Kindle copy.

What works for me may not be what works for you. My personal take:

1. Stephen Levinsohn has done groundbreaking work here. I wish I had been able to attend his workshops, I think it can be hard to grasp some of this from his books alone.
2. Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament is a lot easier to understand than Levinsohn, and has made discourse accessible to a much wider audience.
3. For most mere mortals approaching this, it's extremely helpful to have a Greek New Testament marked with discourse features by experts. Logos is currently the best way to view Levinsohn's discourse features. Our own Macula also shows discourse features, using the same data. We will be improving the way it is displayed, and this is available for free. Watch this space.
4. Fresch takes all of this a step further. It's accessible like Runge, and very much on the same page. It applies it to a new corpus. He describes things from a different perspective, which is helpful. He provides evidence from the papyrii and from LXX translation choices that give further evidence for the kinds of things Levinsohn and Runge are saying.

So if you aren't already expert in discourse features, I would start with Steve Runge's Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament and find some way to see how experts have identified discourse features in real texts. I would read papers in which Levinsohn describes discourse of specific passages. But I think Fresch is right up there, an extremely useful resource, at least for me.
Thank you for the helpful reply. Almost thou persuadest me ...
I have read Runge. The only thing now that stops me from buying this one is that I am only 2 chapters into Levinsohn. Plus, I am starting Basics of Hebrew Discourse by Patton, Putnam, and Van Pelt. So I should get those under my belt first. Maybe by that time someone will throw a sale on Fresch's book. :-)
Oh, yeah, and I just sank a bit more than my monthly allowance on books already this month!
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
S Walch
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by S Walch »

Just thought I'd mention I've read neither Runge nor Levinsohn's books which Jonathan has mentioned, and I understood Fresch fine. He does have quite a long introduction which should suffice most people's needs. In my opinion, anyway :)
mikeatnip
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by mikeatnip »

I have a lot of stuff on Logos, bought in packages, that I have hardly looked at (only had Logos a year, and mostly use Accordance). I see now that I can toggle the discourse features on, something I never realized I could do and must have come with a more recent package. So thanks for the heads up on that. Now to get it all to sit nicely in my brain!
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
James Spinti
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by James Spinti »

S Walch wrote: July 31st, 2023, 2:15 pm Just thought I'd mention I've read neither Runge nor Levinsohn's books which Jonathan has mentioned, and I understood Fresch fine. He does have quite a long introduction which should suffice most people's needs. In my opinion, anyway :)
It's a revised dissertation, so he has to show that he knows of what he speaks. Consequently, the introduction lays things out in a way that makes it easier to follow. And Chris is a good writer, too, so that helps.
James
Proofreading and copyediting of ancient Near Eastern and biblical studies monographs
mikeatnip
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by mikeatnip »

mikeatnip wrote: July 31st, 2023, 2:20 pm I have a lot of stuff on Logos, bought in packages, that I have hardly looked at (only had Logos a year, and mostly use Accordance). I see now that I can toggle the discourse features on, something I never realized I could do and must have come with a more recent package. So thanks for the heads up on that. Now to get it all to sit nicely in my brain!
And now yesterday Logos has just informed me that "Discourse Analysis of the New Testament Writings - Clark and Scacewater" that I signed on as pre-pub has been released. A full plate to digest, for me!
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
mikeatnip
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Re: Fresch - Discourse Markers in Early Koine Greek: Cognitive Functional Analysis and LXX Translation Technique

Post by mikeatnip »

This is currently on sale at the SBL site, 30% off with the discount code.
Mike Atnip
May I not debate presumptuously; may I not be silent impudently. May I learn beneficial speech; may I acquire discerning silence. -Ephrem the Syrian
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