Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Stephen Carlson wrote: October 12th, 2020, 1:19 am For (1), this is the kind of question that requires a specialist in the study of the Greek of Revelation, not the general Greek reader. If I read BDAG right, there may be parallels in Pindar, 2 Macc 12:11, EpArist), but I'm worried that Rev does know how to use διά + gen. (1:1 and 21:24).
I can't find the Pindar reference (it's apparently found in a scholiast's note), but 2nd Macc 12:11

γενομένης δὲ καρτερᾶς μάχης καὶ τῶν περὶ τὸν Ἰούδαν διὰ τὴν παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ βοήθειαν εὐημερησάντων...

Then a great battle arose and Judah's people succeeded with God's help..." (note the nice genitive absolute, BTW).

However, rendering that they succeeded "because of" or "due to" God's help would mean exactly the same thing in English. The LES does this, but the RSV render's it "by God's help," the NETS "with God's help."

I suppose my point is that "by" or "with" are idiomatic English at this point, but that doesn't really change the meaning of the Greek, which is still cause.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Thanks Barry et al., this has been helpful.
Daniel Semler
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Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Daniel Semler »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 12th, 2020, 8:09 am
I can't find the Pindar reference (it's apparently found in a scholiast's note), but 2nd Macc 12:11
I think this is the Pindar reference: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Apoem%3D9
Third last line at the bottom of the page.

thx
D
Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Daniel Semler wrote: October 12th, 2020, 9:55 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 12th, 2020, 8:09 am
I can't find the Pindar reference (it's apparently found in a scholiast's note), but 2nd Macc 12:11
I think this is the Pindar reference: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Apoem%3D9
Third last line at the bottom of the page.

thx
D
This, right?

ἔνθʼ Ἀλεξίδαμος, ἐπεὶ φύγε λαιψηρὸν δρόμον,
παρθένον κεδνὰν χερὶ χειρὸς ἑλὼν
ἆγεν ἱππευτᾶν Νομάδων διʼ ὅμιλον

"He led her through the crowd of Nomad horseman..." (note the "Doric" genitive plural).

We might expect, I suppose, the genitive instead of the accusative, "through" as in passing through, but this doesn't seem to fit what we have been talking about.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Daniel Semler
Posts: 315
Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Daniel Semler »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 12th, 2020, 11:45 am
Daniel Semler wrote: October 12th, 2020, 9:55 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 12th, 2020, 8:09 am
I can't find the Pindar reference (it's apparently found in a scholiast's note), but 2nd Macc 12:11
I think this is the Pindar reference: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 3Apoem%3D9
Third last line at the bottom of the page.

thx
D
This, right?

ἔνθʼ Ἀλεξίδαμος, ἐπεὶ φύγε λαιψηρὸν δρόμον,
παρθένον κεδνὰν χερὶ χειρὸς ἑλὼν
ἆγεν ἱππευτᾶν Νομάδων διʼ ὅμιλον

"He led her through the crowd of Nomad horseman..." (note the "Doric" genitive plural).

We might expect, I suppose, the genitive instead of the accusative, "through" as in passing through, but this doesn't seem to fit what we have been talking about.
My mistake - there are two references to Pindar in BDAG on δια.
B. w. acc.
1. marker of extension through an area, through (Hom. and other early Gk. only in poetry, e.g. Pind. P. 9, 123 δἰ ὅμιλον ‘through the throng’; Hellenistic prose since Dionys. Hal. [JKäser, D. Präpositionen b. Dionys. Hal., diss. Erlangen 1915, 54]; ISyriaW 1866b τὸν πάτρωνα διὰ πάντα of the governor of a whole province) διήρχετο διὰ μέσον Σαμαρείας καὶ Γαλιλαίας Lk 17:11 (cp. SibOr 3, 316 ῥομφαία διελεύσεται διὰ μέσον σεῖο).
and then further on
d. instead of διά w. gen. to denote the efficient cause we may have διά, by
α. w. acc. of thing (schol. on Pind., N. 4, 79a; 2 Macc 12:11; EpArist 77) διὰ τὸ αἷμα by the blood Rv 12:11. διὰ τὰ σημεῖα by the miracles 13:14.
So sorry - not the first - the second and there we run aground on the scholiast's note again. Apologies. Not a very detailed reference alas, that last one.

Thx
D
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