Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

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Matthew Longhorn
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Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

I am reading a book on Revelation at the moment and the author is arguing on the basis of Rev 12:11 and 13:14 that 6:9 could be seen as indicating that the martyrs are slain by the word of God and by their witness
Rev 6:9 Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν πέμπτην σφραγῖδα, εἶδον ὑποκάτω τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν ἐσφαγμένων διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἣν εἶχον. (NA28)
Rev 12:11 καὶ ⸀αὐτοὶ ἐνίκησαν αὐτὸν διὰ τὸ αἷμα τοῦ ἀρνίου καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τῆς μαρτυρίας αὐτῶν καὶ οὐκ ἠγάπησαν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτῶν ἄχρι θανάτου. Revelation 12:11 (NA28)
Rev 13:14 καὶ πλανᾷ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς διὰ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ποιῆσαι ἐνώπιον τοῦ θηρίου, λέγων τοῖς κατοικοῦσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ποιῆσαι εἰκόνα τῷ θηρίῳ, ὃς ἔχει τὴν πληγὴν τῆς μαχαίρης καὶ ἔζησεν Revelation(NA28)

The argument in the book is a touch complex so I can't really explain why he argues for this beyond that he says the concept of dying in Revelation as a metaphor for conversion. Those killed by God and his agents are those who come to be persuaded by the gospel; those killed by Satan are those who turn to him.

Theology aside, it raises the question of whether δια + acc is reasonable as an indicator of instrumental cause.

BDAG is cited
α. w. acc. of thing (schol. on Pind., N. 4, 79a; 2 Macc 12:11; EpArist 77) διὰ τὸ αἷμα by the blood Rv 12:11. διὰ τὰ σημεῖα by the miracles 13:14.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 226). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
This ties in with BDF
222. Διά with accusative. In a local sense ‘through’ (classical only in poetry, Hellenistic in prose since Dionys. Hal. [Käser 54]) only Lk 17:11 διήρχετο διὰ μέσον (SBL, A al. διὰ μέσου, D μέσον without διὰ [§215(3)]) Σαμαρείας καὶ Γαλιλαίας, hardly correct. J. Blinzler, Festschr. A. Wikenhauser (Munich, 1954) 50ff. holds that μέσον Σαμαρείας καί is to be struck out as a gloss; on the impossible geography s. H. Conzelmann, Die Mitte der Zeit 60–6 [68–73]. Otherwise ‘because of, for the sake of’, for the reason (propter) as well as for the purpose (= classical ἕνεκα; cf. §216(1)), so that the MGr meaning ‘for’ also arises (Hatzid. 212f.): Mk 2:27 τὸ σάββατον διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐγένετο καὶ οὐχ ὁ ἄνθρ. διὰ τὸ σάββατον, Jn 11:42, 12:30, 1 C 11:9 etc. (already in some books of the LXX the only use of διά with acc. [Johannessohn II 240f.]). ‘By someone’s merit’ (as in classical) Jn 6:57, R 8:20, therefore also ‘by force of’ Rev 12:11, 13:14.—Mayser II 2, 368f., 426; Humbert 144ff.; Ljungvik, Syntax 33ff.; Ghedini, Vang. ap. 452; Rob. 583f.; Moule 54f.
Blass, F., Debrunner, A., & Funk, R. W. (1961). A Greek grammar of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (p. 119). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Given the limited range of examples given for such a nuance I am wondering whether folk can see this in their reading of classical / other koine?
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

I refuse to unravel that or interact with the the interpretation per se, but:

1) I note that BDAG refers to the usage as "efficient cause" and not means or instrumentality:
ⓓ instead of διά w. gen. to denote the efficient cause we may have διά, by
α. w. acc. of thing (schol. on Pind., N. 4, 79a; 2 Macc 12:11; EpArist 77) διὰ τὸ αἷμα by the blood Rv 12:11. διὰ τὰ σημεῖα by the miracles 13:14.
I'm not sure they are quite the same thing.

2) Considering the ubiquity during this time period where the distinction between διά + gen and + acc is fairly rigorously observed, I am deeply suspicious of the claim. I don't think you'll find many people in the history of interpretation who see it that way.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

I wasn’t quite sure what to make of efficient cause, I took it to mean broadly the same as instrumentality. What is the difference?
Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 11th, 2020, 11:12 am 2) Considering the ubiquity during this time period where the distinction between διά + gen and + acc is fairly rigorously observed, I am deeply suspicious of the claim. I don't think you'll find many people in the history of interpretation who see it that way
Do you mean of the claims in BDAG / BDF or of this use in Rev 6:9?
A lot of translations take seem to use "by" as the translation in 12:11 and 13:14
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

The place to look for idioms in the Apocalypse is in the Apocalypse.

Rev. 20:4 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ᾿ αὐτοὺς καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς, καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν. καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Hey Stirling, I am not sure that that deals with the question. I would assume that Winters would also argue this verse is the same as 6:9, 12:11 and 13:14
The question is whether efficient cause / instrumental (I am not sure of the difference) would apply here
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: October 11th, 2020, 11:47 am Hey Stirling, I am not sure that that deals with the question. I would assume that Winters would also argue this verse is the same as 6:9, 12:11 and 13:14
The question is whether efficient cause / instrumental (I am not sure of the difference) would apply here
indicating that the martyrs are slain by the word of God and by their witness
Forget the metalanguage. It is always a waste of time quibbling over metalanguage. τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ cannot mean "beheaded by the witness ... and by the Word."
Last edited by Stirling Bartholomew on October 11th, 2020, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

It can if you are taking the death language as a metaphor which is why I wanted to avoid the theology on this one and focus on how δια + accusative can function. Namely whether it can be instrumental and it seems I am mistaken on that term here with efficient cause being different. I need to try to work out what that means as well in the context of Greek grammar
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: October 11th, 2020, 12:58 pm It can if you are taking the death language as a metaphor ...
It isn't a metaphor. You can forget about that. You need to provide the content from your author if you want any meaningful refutation.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Which doesn’t answer my question in the original post :D
Namely whether this usage in 12:11 and 13:14 is found in other texts in Koine / classical.
And to be fair, with regards to the meta language - surely it is important to understand in what sense BDF / BDAG are using their terminology?
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Rev 12:11 and 13:14 - δια + acc as instrumental

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: October 11th, 2020, 1:10 pm Which doesn’t answer my question in the original post :D
Namely whether this usage in 12:11 and 13:14 is found in other texts in Koine / classical.
And to be fair, with regards to the meta language - surely it is important to understand in what sense BDF / BDAG are using their terminology?
Your looking for answers in the wrong place. The author of the Apocalypse has a private language.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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