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ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 6th, 2019, 1:41 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
Ahanasius On the Incarnation
§ 46.1 Πότε τὴν τῶν εἰδώλων θρησκείαν ἤρξαντο καταλιμπάνειν οἱ ἄνθρωποι, εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις; πότε δὲ τὰ παρ' Ἕλλησι καὶ πανταχοῦ μαντεῖα πέπαυται καὶ κεκένωται, εἰ μὴ ὅτε μέχρι γῆς πεφανέρωκεν ἑαυτὸν ὁ Σωτήρ;
§ 46.1 When did men begin to desert the worshiping of idols, save since God, the true Word of God, has come among men? Or when have the oracles among the Greeks, and everywhere, ceased and become empty, save when the Saviour has manifested Himself upon earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Epiphanius Panarion
ὁ γὰρ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ θεὸς Λόγος, ὡς ἐν πόλει ἁγίᾳ καὶ ἐν ναῷ ἁγίῳ ...
Does the syntax in Ahanasius ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος suggest more than one analysis?
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 6th, 2019, 3:05 pm
by Peng Huiguo
That's an appositive isn't it? Like in Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς, take out the article and you have Ἰωάννης βαπτιστὴς, John, the baptist. Same here
εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις;
unless godly truth manifests out of God, the Word, in men? (οὗ referring to Θεὸς Λόγος)
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
by Daniel Semler
Hi ya,
I've not got to Athanasius yet but I had a look. He likes this construction. He uses variations of it in nine places.
I'm seriously tempted to translate ὁ ἀληθινὸς substantively, leading to something like : "the true one of God, God the Word".
Thx
D
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 7th, 2019, 1:56 am
by tdbenedict
When I read the quote cold, I read it as "the true 'God of God' word". He is the true word, which is God of God
That is, a (similar, but not identical) echo of the creed: Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ.
Whether or not that works grammatically, I don't know.
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 7th, 2019, 10:50 am
by Stirling Bartholomew
dimi wrote: ↑May 6th, 2019, 3:05 pm
That's an appositive isn't it? Like in Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστὴς, take out the article and you have Ἰωάννης βαπτιστὴς, John, the baptist. Same here
εἰ μὴ ἀφ' οὗ γέγονεν ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος ἐν ἀνθρώποις;
unless godly truth manifests out of God, the Word, in men? (οὗ referring to Θεὸς Λόγος)
I have forgotten, almost, what an appositive is.
" ... take out the article ... "
The article is the key to unraveling the syntax. What does the article pair with? If we look at numerous examples of hyperbaton in Athenasius we find that the article and its substantive are used as end pieces which make a bundle/package and between the article and its substantive we find finite verbs, prepositional phrases, participle clauses ... all which contribute in some manner to the main clause. So the article is important and that leads us to one problem with this citation. There is more than one substantive in the nominative. The pattern found other "bundles" suggests joining ὁ with Λόγος with τοῦ Θεοῦ as an argument. The placement of Θεὸς is not what you would expect for a constituent in
apposition, is it? Again, I haven't cracked a grammar over this.
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 7th, 2019, 11:04 am
by Stirling Bartholomew
Daniel Semler wrote: ↑May 6th, 2019, 10:25 pm
I've not got to Athanasius yet but I had a look. He likes this construction. He uses variations of it in nine places.
I'm seriously tempted to translate ὁ ἀληθινὸς substantively, leading to something like : "the true one of God, God the Word".
Yes, Athanasius employs a lot of repetition. Not only verbatim repetition, also restating ideas in different wording. Reading
On the Incarnation, which is somewhat longer than Luke's Gospel, you begin to get a feeling for his way of doing things. His style doesn't immediately call to mind any New Testament author.
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 7th, 2019, 11:47 am
by Stirling Bartholomew
tdbenedict wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 1:56 am
When I read the quote cold, I read it as "the true 'God of God' word". He is the true word, which is God of God
That is, a (similar, but not identical) echo of the creed: Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ.
Whether or not that works grammatically, I don't know.
Your analysis admirably demonstrates the difficulty in Athanasius. What creed are you citing?
Here is something from
Councils of Ephesus 431
κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς
ὁ μονογενὴς υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, θεὸς λόγος, ὁ αὐτὸς πρὸ μὲν πάντων τῶν αἰώνων ἐκ μόνου πατρός,
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 7th, 2019, 1:30 pm
by Peng Huiguo
The pair-form θεὸς λόγος often appears. I've seen it in Origen, Chrysostom, Orthodox liturgy, theological tract... A few months back, Stirling,
you were talking about it right here. Yes it often has an article, but that article always binds tightly to θεός, making the phrase to mean "Word the God" rather than "God the Word", but with "God" moved to the front for emphasis. It's like a divine title. I've even seen it printed as ΘΕΟΣΛΟΓΟΣ apart from the rest of the sentence. Any unravelling must treat this pair as a unit, as that last quote you posted demonstrates in its punctuation.
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 8th, 2019, 2:03 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
dimi wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 1:30 pm
The pair-form θεὸς λόγος often appears. I've seen it in Origen, Chrysostom, Orthodox liturgy, theological tract...
Here is something else from the same context:
§ 46.3a Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;
§ 46.3a Or when did the deceitfulness and madness of demons fall into contempt, save when the power of God, the Word, the Master of all these as well, condescending because of man's weakness, appeared on earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Where ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
Re: ὁ ἀληθινὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ Θεὸς Λόγος
Posted: May 9th, 2019, 10:45 am
by Daniel Semler
Stirling Bartholomew wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Here is something else from the same context:
§ 46.3a Πότε δὲ ἡ δαιμόνων ἀπάτη καὶ μανία κατεφρονήθη, εἰ μὴ ὅτε ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις ὁ Λόγος, ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης, διὰ τὴν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀσθένειαν συγκαταβάς, ἐπὶ γῆς ἐφάνη;
§ 46.3a Or when did the deceitfulness and madness of demons fall into contempt, save when the power of God, the Word, the Master of all these as well, condescending because of man's weakness, appeared on earth?
A. Robertson 1891
Where ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις is in apposition to ὁ Λόγος?
My initial inclination was the reverse. But ... you have three terms here ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ Δύναμις, ὁ Λόγος and ὁ πάντων καὶ τούτων Δεσπότης. So I expect that two are in apposition to the third. The question is: will the real subject please step forward ? Curiously, I tend to think of Δύναμις as impersonal and Λόγος as personal and more obviously Δεσπότης as personal. Given the verb then I would go with a more personal noun. So perhaps Λόγος as the subject and the other two as apposition. I haven't reviewed apposition in a grammar in reference to this which might be useful. I just got the CGCG on Kindle - that would be a useful first application.
Thx
D