Determining Genitive Masculine and Neuter, and Dative Plural Gender

How can I best learn the paradigms of nouns and verbs and the other inflected parts of speech?
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Determining Genitive Masculine and Neuter, and Dative Plural Gender

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

LearningGreek wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:29 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: September 26th, 2021, 8:50 pm
LearningGreek wrote: September 26th, 2021, 6:33 pm

Sorry, I mean genitive singular, masculine (οῦ) and neutor (οῦ). The articles for them are the same as well τοῦ.

The articles on the example you gave are different even though the case ending is the same. With the genitive singular the articles and case ending are the same.
Did you get the point that a noun is always the same gender no matter what case it takes?
I did not get that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bill mounce states that you can use the article to help determine the gender of a noun since they are unique unlike the case endings.

My confusion is that some of the articles are the same for masc and neut. So when I am going through the workbook parsing a word, I do not know if I should parse it as masc or neut since its case ending fir masc and neut is the same and the article for masc and neut is the same.
Don't get hung up on using a workbook that asks you to parse isolated words.
Start reading the GNT and see how 'real Greek' sentences function.
Yes, parse something which gives you a problem in translation, but do it in the context of a real sentence.
BTW the endings for the Masculine and Neuter Definite Articles are identical in Genitive and Dative, Singular and Plural. Genitive Plural ending is identical for just about everything.
In English the Definite Article is the same for all genders and cases - but it doesn't give us a problem, we just blast through and say "the" without thinking about it.
LearningGreek
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Re: Determining Genitive Masculine and Neuter, and Dative Plural Gender

Post by LearningGreek »

Shirley Rollinson wrote: September 27th, 2021, 2:48 pm
LearningGreek wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:29 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: September 26th, 2021, 8:50 pm

Did you get the point that a noun is always the same gender no matter what case it takes?
I did not get that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bill mounce states that you can use the article to help determine the gender of a noun since they are unique unlike the case endings.

My confusion is that some of the articles are the same for masc and neut. So when I am going through the workbook parsing a word, I do not know if I should parse it as masc or neut since its case ending fir masc and neut is the same and the article for masc and neut is the same.
Don't get hung up on using a workbook that asks you to parse isolated words.
Start reading the GNT and see how 'real Greek' sentences function.
Yes, parse something which gives you a problem in translation, but do it in the context of a real sentence.
BTW the endings for the Masculine and Neuter Definite Articles are identical in Genitive and Dative, Singular and Plural. Genitive Plural ending is identical for just about everything.
In English the Definite Article is the same for all genders and cases - but it doesn't give us a problem, we just blast through and say "the" without thinking about it.
I think he eventually will get us to the GNT but since he does not teach verbs until Ch15 he is using these contrived sentences.

Thank you (and everyone else) for all of your input and help in clearing up my confusion.
Jason Hare
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Re: Determining Genitive Masculine and Neuter, and Dative Plural Gender

Post by Jason Hare »

LearningGreek wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:29 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote: September 26th, 2021, 8:50 pm
LearningGreek wrote: September 26th, 2021, 6:33 pm

Sorry, I mean genitive singular, masculine (οῦ) and neutor (οῦ). The articles for them are the same as well τοῦ.

The articles on the example you gave are different even though the case ending is the same. With the genitive singular the articles and case ending are the same.
Did you get the point that a noun is always the same gender no matter what case it takes?
I did not get that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Bill mounce states that you can use the article to help determine the gender of a noun since they are unique unlike the case endings.

My confusion is that some of the articles are the same for masc and neut. So when I am going through the workbook parsing a word, I do not know if I should parse it as masc or neut since its case ending fir masc and neut is the same and the article for masc and neut is the same.
It's because these "masculine" and "neuter" are in the same DECLENSION. They are both second declension, so it's the same word group. It's just that there is a variation for neuter on that declension. You will find later that there are also feminine nouns in the second declension, and they have the same endings as the masculine. For example:

ἡ νόσος "disease, sickness"
τῆς νόσου
τῇ νόσῳ
τὴν νόσον

ἡ νῆσος "island"
τῆς νήσου
τῇ νήσῳ
τὴν νῆσον

Basically, these words are grouped together because their roots end in -ο, which causes them to behave the same way. The masculine and feminine are identical, and the neuter is one off in the nominative and accusative (-ον for singular and for plural).

The reason you are learning the first declension for the feminine is because the vast majority of adjectives are 2-1-2, meaning that the masculine is second declension, the feminine is first declension, and the neuter is second declension. There are other adjectives types, too, but you have to get started somewhere.

There's a lot to learn, so don't be so worried about getting it all perfect. Just learn it as presented and deal with the vocab that he gives you -- and the translation exercises. You have the workbook that goes with the grammar, don't you? You won't get far without the workbook. It's essential.

And, of course, ask for guidance at every point. Just be aware that you're dealing with a real language, and languages always have inconsistencies.
Jason A. Hare
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Tel Aviv, Israel
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Determining Genitive Masculine and Neuter, and Dative Plural Gender

Post by Jonathan Robie »

LearningGreek wrote: September 27th, 2021, 9:29 am
My confusion is that some of the articles are the same for masc and neut. So when I am going through the workbook parsing a word, I do not know if I should parse it as masc or neut since its case ending fir masc and neut is the same and the article for masc and neut is the same.
I think you are assuming that there is no ambiguity in Greek word forms. That's simply not true. If you look at an article, in isolation, you may not know how to parse it. Or rather, you know that there are several possibilities. So what you are seeing is absolutely correct - and it's the way the language works.

So how do people read a language with so many ambiguities? Well, when you read the words in context and when you know the gender of the nouns many of these ambiguities melt away. So for the workbook examples, see if you can identify the gender of the associated nouns, that may clear some things up.

But you won't feel comfortable reading these ambiguous forms that until you start reading texts with some level of understanding. At some point, you will wonder why it bothered you.

FWIW, all human languages have ambiguity.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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