Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Bill Ross wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:50 pm Compare with Matthew's version:
[Matthew 24:9 NASB20] (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.
If all you are asking about is the grammar, here is a simple introduction : Chapter 17 of the Online Textbook, http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/contents.html, as a pdf file http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook ... itions.pdf, see sections 17.4 and 17.9
Bill Ross
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Bill Ross »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: September 5th, 2021, 12:23 pm Basically any introductory text. At least John I. Saeed: Semantics is good, so is Alan Cruse: Meaning in Language. I have read them (maybe older editions). Anything by Cambridge and Oxford are probably good, like Semantics: An Introduction to Meaning in Language; or Semantics (Oxford Introduction to Language Study Series). I don't know how one could go awfully wrong with any introductory book by a reputable publisher.

https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/231, Analyzing meaning: An introduction to semantics and pragmatics is a free pdf.

Please note that semantics may not directly address the issues at hand. But it's the one subdicipline of linguistics which is easy to start with and which can pay back immediately. It's fascinating and useful for anyone who is interested in language. It gives perspective for example to discussions about tense, aspect and voice or noun case system or reading lexicons.
Thanks Eeli. I appreciate it.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Bill Ross
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Bill Ross »

Shirley Rollinson wrote: September 5th, 2021, 12:50 pm
Bill Ross wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:50 pm Compare with Matthew's version:
[Matthew 24:9 NASB20] (9) "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
But what I'm really asking about is the grammar.
If all you are asking about is the grammar, here is a simple introduction : Chapter 17 of the Online Textbook, http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/contents.html, as a pdf file http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook ... itions.pdf, see sections 17.4 and 17.9
Thanks.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: September 5th, 2021, 9:16 am
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: September 5th, 2021, 8:54 am Like for other people, I recommend reading some dose of general linguistics, especially semantics. You would probably understand better what Stephen says.
Stephen, Eeli, what reading would you recommend here for someone who does not have this background? Is there something reasonably accessible?

I just moved this thread to the Beginner's Forum, but even many people who are not beginners have not read these things. What would you recommend we read?
My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Stephen Carlson wrote: September 5th, 2021, 10:13 pm My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.
Fair enough, and that's pretty much the stock answer here. But on the other hand you already used metalanguage in your explanation. I would be interested in seeing how you yourself explain your explanation. "What does non-referential mean" is in my opinion the question which should have been asked immediately by the original poster instead of skipping the explanation. The whole discussion would have been very different.

I don't have motivation to start reading Kroeger now ("Analyzing meaning" linked to above) but Chapter 2 seems to be "Referring, denoting, and expressing". It would be interesting to hear if anyone finds it useful for understanding Stephen's explanation.
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: September 9th, 2021, 5:15 pm
Stephen Carlson wrote: September 5th, 2021, 10:13 pm My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.
Fair enough, and that's pretty much the stock answer here. But on the other hand you already used metalanguage in your explanation. I would be interested in seeing how you yourself explain your explanation. "What does non-referential mean" is in my opinion the question which should have been asked immediately by the original poster instead of skipping the explanation. The whole discussion would have been very different.
Yes the response to take a Greek class is pretty pat, but it was tailored to our former interlocutor who had been spinning his wheels on B-Greek in self-study for the better part of two decades and never getting anywhere. And if you follow his links, you'll see that the relevant "context" for him is not the linguistic context but a theological structure he is developing (which explains why he cites passages in other books as "context").

That said, I'm beginning to realize just how much competence in the language our lexica and other tools are assuming of its users. Earlier in the thread, I was trying to articulate what I thought was going on in the lexcon extry but it seems to me that without a feel for the language (or metalanguage) it might not be comprehensible.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: September 9th, 2021, 5:15 pm I don't have motivation to start reading Kroeger now ("Analyzing meaning" linked to above) but Chapter 2 seems to be "Referring, denoting, and expressing". It would be interesting to hear if anyone finds it useful for understanding Stephen's explanation.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
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