Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

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Sam
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Sam »

Thank you for the resources.

I've long since tried to limit myself to physical books in my study, so that perhaps the hassle of having to look up the same information over and over again might force myself to remember. But alas, the speed and convenience of the computer as well as the wealth of available resources seem to make my study easier.
BrillDAG is really helpful in this way - using τι, τινος, τινι, τινα to identify the case of the object.
I have no idea how τι, τινος, τινι, τινα identify the case of the object. Can you enlighten?
Jason Hare
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jason Hare »

Sam wrote: January 16th, 2023, 5:52 am I have no idea how τι, τινος, τινι, τινα identify the case of the object. Can you enlighten?
τινος = genitive
τινι = dative
τι = neuter accusative ("something")
τινα = masculine/feminine accusative ("somebody")

It's the case paradigm of τις, τι (the indefinite pronoun), which belongs to the third declension (stem τιν-*).
Jason A. Hare
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jason Hare wrote: January 16th, 2023, 8:07 am
Sam wrote: January 16th, 2023, 5:52 am I have no idea how τι, τινος, τινι, τινα identify the case of the object. Can you enlighten?
τινος = genitive
τινι = dative
τι = neuter accusative ("something")
τινα = masculine/feminine accusative ("somebody")

It's the case paradigm of τις, τι (the indefinite pronoun), which belongs to the third declension (stem τιν-*).
Yes - there's a good description here:

https://hellenisticgreek.com/26.html

Or here:

http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook ... 43-tis.pdf

The interrogative pronoun τίς, τί (who? what?) and the indefinite pronoun τις, τι (someone, something, anyone, anything) are spelled the same way and declined the same way, they differ by accent. They are worth learning early on, because asking and answering questions about the text you are reading in Greek is one of the better ways to learn actively.

What grammar are you using? Look for "indefinite pronoun" and "interrogative pronoun".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: January 16th, 2023, 3:01 pm The interrogative pronoun τίς, τί (who? what?) and the indefinite pronoun τις, τι (someone, something, anyone, anything) are spelled the same way and declined the same way, they differ by accent. They are worth learning early on, because asking and answering questions about the text you are reading in Greek is one of the better ways to learn actively.
Exactly right, which is the source of my beef of primers that introduce the Third Declension so late (looking at you Mounce).
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Sam
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Sam »

Thanks guys.

I'll study those resources.

Yes, there's something about asking questions. It makes the subject matter more interesting and memorable.
Jonathan Robie wrote: January 16th, 2023, 3:01 pm What grammar are you using? Look for "indefinite pronoun" and "interrogative pronoun".
I have three: Mounce's Biblical Basics, Wallace's Beyond Basics, and Black's It's Still Greek to Me.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

So let's try asking some questions of this sentence:

~ Οἱ δοῦλοι
v ὑπακούετε
+ κατὰ πάντα
o τοῖς κατὰ σάρκα κυρίοις

Instead of asking "what is the subject of the verb ὑπακούετε?" or "what is the object of the verb ὑπακούετε?" Why not try these questions, which are much more natural and require you to ask in Greek?

τίς δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
τίνι δεῖ ὑπακούειν;

You can do that with any sentence, asking questions like these in Greek and writing out the answers. Much better practice than many that you find in textbooks.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Sam
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Sam »

Jonathan Robie wrote: January 17th, 2023, 7:39 pm Instead of asking "what is the subject of the verb ὑπακούετε?" or "what is the object of the verb ὑπακούετε?" Why not try these questions, which are much more natural and require you to ask in Greek?

τίς δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
τίνι δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
Thank you. This is interesting.

Could there be such a question as "τίνα δεῖ ὑπακούειν;", since τοῖς κυρίοις is already the direct object but in the dative instead of the accusative case?
Jason Hare
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Robie wrote: January 17th, 2023, 7:39 pm So let's try asking some questions of this sentence:

~ Οἱ δοῦλοι
v ὑπακούετε
+ κατὰ πάντα
o τοῖς κατὰ σάρκα κυρίοις

Instead of asking "what is the subject of the verb ὑπακούετε?" or "what is the object of the verb ὑπακούετε?" Why not try these questions, which are much more natural and require you to ask in Greek?

τίς δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
τίνι δεῖ ὑπακούειν;

You can do that with any sentence, asking questions like these in Greek and writing out the answers. Much better practice than many that you find in textbooks.
The problem here is that δεῖ takes its subject in the accusative, not in the nominative (it's technically the subject of the infinitive being expressed). Using δεῖ complicates things when trying to construct simple sentences.

τίνες τοῖς κυρίοις κατὰ πάντα ὑπακούουσιν;
Who (pl) obey (their) masters in all things?
Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jason Hare »

Sam wrote: January 18th, 2023, 7:08 am
Jonathan Robie wrote: January 17th, 2023, 7:39 pm Instead of asking "what is the subject of the verb ὑπακούετε?" or "what is the object of the verb ὑπακούετε?" Why not try these questions, which are much more natural and require you to ask in Greek?

τίς δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
τίνι δεῖ ὑπακούειν;
Thank you. This is interesting.

Could there be such a question as "τίνα δεῖ ὑπακούειν;", since τοῖς κυρίοις is already the direct object but in the dative instead of the accusative case?
Get used to the regular paradigms before playing with δεῖ. It takes some adjustment to get used to.
Jason A. Hare
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Why does 2 Thess 1:8 use both an accusative and a dative for the direct object of a participle?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jason Hare wrote: January 18th, 2023, 7:44 am The problem here is that δεῖ takes its subject in the accusative, not in the nominative (it's technically the subject of the infinitive being expressed). Using δεῖ complicates things when trying to construct simple sentences.

τίνες τοῖς κυρίοις κατὰ πάντα ὑπακούουσιν;
Who (pl) obey (their) masters in all things?
Oops! Thanks for correcting that. I should have caught it.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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