if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

How do I work out the meaning of a Greek text? How can I best understand the forms and vocabulary in this particular text?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

linjinting wrote: February 5th, 2024, 10:40 am Matthew 18:15, about which the text should be “Ἐὰν δὲ ἁμαρτήσῃ ὁ ἀδελφός σου, ὕπαγε ἔλεγξον αὐτὸν μεταξὺ σοῦ καὶ αὐτοῦ μόνου. ἐάν σου ἀκούσῃ, ἐκέρδησας τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.” It shouldn’t be “Ἐὰν δὲ ἁμαρτήσῃ εἰς σὲ ὁ ἀδελφός σου, ὕπαγε ἔλεγξον αὐτὸν μεταξὺ σοῦ καὶ αὐτοῦ μόνου. ἐάν σου ἀκούσῃ, ἐκέρδησας τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.”
What does "should be" mean here?

If I line this up, I see two words that differ between the two variants you list:

Ἐὰν δὲ ἁμαρτήσῃ ὁ ἀδελφός σου,
Ἐὰν δὲ ἁμαρτήσῃ [εἰς σὲ] ὁ ἀδελφός σου,

The rest seems to be the same:

ὕπαγε ἔλεγξον αὐτὸν μεταξὺ σοῦ καὶ αὐτοῦ μόνου. ἐάν σου ἀκούσῃ, ἐκέρδησας τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.
ὕπαγε ἔλεγξον αὐτὸν μεταξὺ σοῦ καὶ αὐτοῦ μόνου. ἐάν σου ἀκούσῃ, ἐκέρδησας τὸν ἀδελφόν σου.

Here are the major text variants:

https://www.greekcntr.org/collation/index.htm
Screenshot 2024-02-05 at 15.33.16.png
Screenshot 2024-02-05 at 15.33.16.png (512.63 KiB) Viewed 80795 times
Most critical editions include εἰς σὲ, which matches the earliest witnesses. There's another variant reading involving καὶ. So what does "should be" mean to you here?

Also, what does "personally" mean to you here? What Greek do you think it matches? Why is the textual variant relevant to your reading?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Benjamin03
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Re: if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

Post by Benjamin03 »

Αν ο αδελφός σας σας έχει προσβάλει προσωπικά, πρέπει να τον συγχωρήσετε. Η συγχώρεση είναι το κλειδί για την ειρήνη και την αποκατάσταση των σχέσεων. Ο Χριστός μας δίδαξε να συγχωρούμε ο ένας τον άλλον, όπως Αυτός μας συγχωρεί.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Benjamin03 wrote: May 7th, 2025, 10:41 am Αν ο αδελφός σας σας έχει προσβάλει προσωπικά, πρέπει να τον συγχωρήσετε. Η συγχώρεση είναι το κλειδί για την ειρήνη και την αποκατάσταση των σχέσεων. Ο Χριστός μας δίδαξε να συγχωρούμε ο ένας τον άλλον, όπως Αυτός μας συγχωρεί.
That's modern Greek, and it seems to be about forgiveness in general, rather than the question about textual variants:
If your brother has personally offended you, you must forgive him. Forgiveness is the key to peace and the restoration of relationships. Christ taught us to forgive one another, just as He forgives us.
I don't read modern Greek well, so I cheated and used Google Translate. This forum is mostly about biblical Greek.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Benjamin03
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Re: if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

Post by Benjamin03 »

Διαβάζω την Παλαιά και την Καινή Διαθήκη για να κατανοήσω καλύτερα τις διδασκαλίες και τις ιστορίες που καθοδηγούν τη ζωή των πιστών και τον τρόπο που ζούμε σήμερα .
Jonathan Robie
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Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
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Re: if your brother offends you personally, you must forgive him.

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Benjamin03 wrote: May 8th, 2025, 1:29 pm Διαβάζω την Παλαιά και την Καινή Διαθήκη για να κατανοήσω καλύτερα τις διδασκαλίες και τις ιστορίες που καθοδηγούν τη ζωή των πιστών και τον τρόπο που ζούμε σήμερα .
ναί, καὶ ἐπαινῶ τοῦτο· ἀλλ᾿ ὁ τόπος οὗτος προωρισμένος ἐστὶν εἰς τὸ σκοπεῖν τί λέγει τὸ κείμενον ἐν ταῖς ἀρχαίαις γλώσσαις, καὶ εἰς τὸ μελετᾶν τὴν Ἑλληνικὴν τοῦ καιροῦ ἐκείνου, καὶ εἰς τὸ λογίζεσθαι πῶς διδαχθῆναι καὶ μανθάνειν τὴν Ἑλληνιστικήν, καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα.

So we don't focus on spiritual meanings we derive from the entire Old and New Testaments, we focus on what is said in specific passages. And if there are people who want to discuss things in modern Greek, I would prefer a separate subforum for that.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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