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The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 4th, 2012, 7:20 pm
by Ted Twitchell
I have a two part question. The first has to do with the expression found in John 19:18, (" καὶ μετ' αὐτοῦ ἄλλους δύο ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν μέσον δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν), " and with him others two on this side and that and in the middle Jesus.".

This expression is also found in Revelation 22:2, (εν μεσω της πλατειας αυτης και του ποταμου εντευθεν και εντευθεν ξυλον ζωης ), "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life".

There is a similar expression in Ezekiel 47:7, (ἐν τῇ ἐπιστροφῇ μου καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τοῦ χείλους τοῦ ποταμοῦ δένδρα πολλὰ σφόδρα ἔνθεν καὶ ἔνθεν), "Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river there were very many trees on the one side and on the other."

Most of the translations I've read have something like this: "Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle." They all seem to take the number "duo" as a total, rather than distributing it with the expression. Why are they doing this, and why wouldn't "duo" be distribued in the expression?

The second part of my question is with regards to the word "allos", which as I understand it, is a numerical distinction, the second of two where there may be two or more, rather than the Gr. "heteros" , or "another of a different kind, (usually denoting generic distinction)" as used in Luke 23:32, "Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed".

In the examples from Ezekiel and Revelation, the "many trees", and the "tree of life" are distributed with the expression, why isn't this the case with "duo" in John 19:18?

Thanks,
Ted Twitchell

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 4th, 2012, 8:43 pm
by cwconrad
Ted Twitchell wrote:I have a two part question. The first has to do with the expression found in John 19:18, (" καὶ μετ' αὐτοῦ ἄλλους δύο ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν μέσον δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν), " and with him others two on this side and that and in the middle Jesus.".

This expression is also found in Revelation 22:2, (εν μεσω της πλατειας αυτης και του ποταμου εντευθεν και εντευθεν ξυλον ζωης ), "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life".

There is a similar expression in Ezekiel 47:7, (ἐν τῇ ἐπιστροφῇ μου καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐπὶ τοῦ χείλους τοῦ ποταμοῦ δένδρα πολλὰ σφόδρα ἔνθεν καὶ ἔνθεν), "Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river there were very many trees on the one side and on the other."

Most of the translations I've read have something like this: "Here they crucified him, and with him two others--one on each side and Jesus in the middle." They all seem to take the number "duo" as a total, rather than distributing it with the expression. Why are they doing this, and why wouldn't "duo" be distribued in the expression?


-θεν is an ablatival suffix with the sense "away from." ἑνθεν means "away from there" as does also ἐντεῦθεν, but both these are commonly used with a linking καί in the sense of "on one side and on the other (of the understood central element or person)". In John 19:19 the Greek text literally reads "and with him two others on one side and on the other and Jesus in the middle." The English translators are simply rephrasing that sense in more idiomatic English.
Ted Twitchell wrote:The second part of my question is with regards to the word "allos", which as I understand it, is a numerical distinction, the second of two where there may be two or more, rather than the Gr. "heteros" , or "another of a different kind, (usually denoting generic distinction)" as used in Luke 23:32, "Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed".

In the examples from Ezekiel and Revelation, the "many trees", and the "tree of life" are distributed with the expression, why isn't this the case with "duo" in John 19:18?l
ἄλλος/η/ο can be used in several different ways: in the singular as "another" or "other." But it can be used distributively in the plural in an exapression such as οἱ μὲν ... οἱ δ’ ἄλλοι ("some ... others"). The whole variety should be noted in a lexicon. In the expression in John 19:19 δύο ἄλλους means two men in addition to Jesus -- these two situated on either side of him -- and then the concluding μέσον δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν is really redundant, since καὶ μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ ἄλλους δύο ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν has already indicated that there were two others crucified with him -- on the one side away from him and on the other side away from him. It is a redundant expression, but reasonably clear. The expression in Rev. 22:2 does seem a bit odd in that it indicates a single tree on both sides of the river: is it one tree or two? Or does the river flow right through the middle of the tree?

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 5th, 2012, 8:57 am
by David Lim
cwconrad wrote:The expression in Rev. 22:2 does seem a bit odd in that it indicates a single tree on both sides of the river: is it one tree or two? Or does the river flow right through the middle of the tree?
How about a tree that straddles the river, whether under or over the water? Or perhaps, many trees that are indistinguishable and so are collectively called "the tree"? But in that chapter of Ezekiel, there are clearly many distinct trees...

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 6th, 2012, 3:17 am
by Jason Hare
David Lim wrote:
cwconrad wrote:The expression in Rev. 22:2 does seem a bit odd in that it indicates a single tree on both sides of the river: is it one tree or two? Or does the river flow right through the middle of the tree?
How about a tree that straddles the river, whether under or over the water? Or perhaps, many trees that are indistinguishable and so are collectively called "the tree"? But in that chapter of Ezekiel, there are clearly many distinct trees...
I was thinking the same thing - that the image should be compared to that which is found in Ezekiel, in which there are several trees on either side of the river.

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 6th, 2012, 4:22 am
by George F Somsel
Ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν is the reading of the Byz Maj text. Better is ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν. I get the impression that it is one TYPE of tree, the Tree of Life, reflecting Gen 3
21 Καὶ ἐποίησεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῷ Αδαμ καὶ τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ χιτῶνας δερματίνους καὶ ἐνέδυσεν αὐτούς. —22 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Ἰδοὺ Αδαμ γέγονεν ὡς εἷς ἐξ ἡμῶν τοῦ γινώσκειν καλὸν καὶ πονηρόν, καὶ νῦν μήποτε ἐκτείνῃ τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λάβῃ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ φάγῃ καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. 23 καὶ ἐξαπέστειλεν αὐτὸν κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἐκ τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς ἐργάζεσθαι τὴν γῆν, ἐξ ἧς ἐλήμφθη. 24 καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὸν Αδαμ καὶ κατῴκισεν αὐτὸν ἀπέναντι τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς καὶ ἔταξεν τὰ χερουβιμ καὶ τὴν φλογίνην ῥομφαίαν τὴν στρεφομένην φυλάσσειν τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς.
While there is one TYPE of tree, the Tree of Life, from which man had been separated in the Urzeit, there are many instances of the tree scattered about (ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν) to which man is now in the Enzeit granted access.

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 6th, 2012, 5:38 am
by David Lim
George F Somsel wrote:Ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν is the reading of the Byz Maj text. Better is ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν. I get the impression that it is one TYPE of tree, the Tree of Life, reflecting Gen 3
21 Καὶ ἐποίησεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς τῷ Αδαμ καὶ τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ χιτῶνας δερματίνους καὶ ἐνέδυσεν αὐτούς. —22 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Ἰδοὺ Αδαμ γέγονεν ὡς εἷς ἐξ ἡμῶν τοῦ γινώσκειν καλὸν καὶ πονηρόν, καὶ νῦν μήποτε ἐκτείνῃ τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λάβῃ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ φάγῃ καὶ ζήσεται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. 23 καὶ ἐξαπέστειλεν αὐτὸν κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἐκ τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς ἐργάζεσθαι τὴν γῆν, ἐξ ἧς ἐλήμφθη. 24 καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὸν Αδαμ καὶ κατῴκισεν αὐτὸν ἀπέναντι τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς καὶ ἔταξεν τὰ χερουβιμ καὶ τὴν φλογίνην ῥομφαίαν τὴν στρεφομένην φυλάσσειν τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς.
While there is one TYPE of tree, the Tree of Life, from which man had been separated in the Urzeit, there are many instances of the tree scattered about (ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν) to which man is now in the Enzeit granted access.
Is there a difference between "εντευθεν και εντευθεν" and "εντευθεν και εκειθεν"? Anyway can the singular "το ξυλον της ζωης" really mean one type of tree rather than one tree of life? And can "כָּל־עֵֽץ־מַאֲכָל" / "παν ξυλον βρωσιμον" in Ezekiel really mean one type of tree rather than many different types of trees, every one of which is for food? Or is the tree of life actually the only kind of tree that is for food?

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: January 7th, 2012, 7:51 am
by George F Somsel
Yes, there is a difference between ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν and ἐντευθεν καὶ ἐκεῖθεν. The first is an adaptation by the Byz Maj scribes in the direction of the Ezek 47.12 passage. The author of the Apocalypse never actually quotes any passage from the OT, but is in the habit of adapting it to suit his purposes. Contrary to much that has been stated regarding the Apocalypse, it was not written by one whose native language was not Greek. It was rather written by one who desired to give the impression that he was non-native Greek speaker by writing in dialect. In the case of this passage he was not content to use a woodenly literal translation of Ezek 47.12. Rather than reproducing "here and here", he renders "here and there" to indicate the dispersal of the trees. In both Ezek and the Apoc the emphasis is upon the reversal of the separation from the Tree of Life in the Garden and the abundance of opportunity to partake of its life-giving fruit and leaves due to their being scattered about willy-nilly.

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: December 23rd, 2019, 8:53 am
by Brent Niedergall
I came across a recent post on Reddit from Ted, who hasn’t given up on his quest for a satisfying answer. Here is my response.
https://niedergall.com/an-obscure-greek ... an-answer/
Anything anyone would add or take away?

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: December 23rd, 2019, 8:57 am
by Jason Hare
It would seem pretty obvious, I think. You've answered it perfectly well. :)

Re: The expression: "ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν"

Posted: December 23rd, 2019, 2:00 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Brent Niedergall wrote:
December 23rd, 2019, 8:53 am
I came across a recent post on Reddit from Ted, who hasn’t given up on his quest for a satisfying answer. Here is my response.
https://niedergall.com/an-obscure-greek ... an-answer/
Anything anyone would add or take away?
I agree with Jason, well answered, as it was in this forum above in 2012. Often if an individual asks the same question over and over, when it has been correctly and fairly answered, there is an agenda involved.