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Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 24th, 2012, 2:01 pm
by rhutchin
Ephesians 2:8
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ την πίστεων και τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Could τοῦτο refer ahead to δῶρον so that we might read the verse as, "and this (gift) is not of yourselves; the gift is of God."
Roger Hutchinson
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 24th, 2012, 7:35 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
rhutchin wrote:Ephesians 2:8
τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ την πίστεων και τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Could τοῦτο refer ahead to δῶρον so that we might read the verse as, "and this (gift) is not of yourselves; the gift is of God."
τοῦτο I think here makes better sense as referring to the preceding clause as it's antecedent. I'm not sure that your suggestion is impossible, but I think the syntax could be much clearer if the author had in mind for τοῦτο directly to modify τὸ δῶρον, something like τοῦτο δὲ τὸ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ δῶρον, especially since it is frequent for οὗτος to refer to what precedes rather than what follows, and not unusual for the neuter to be used when the antecedent is a clause or a mixed gender.
But I'd be interested in others' input on this.
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 24th, 2012, 8:44 pm
by Stephen Carlson
rhutchin wrote:Ephesians 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ την πίστεων και τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Could τοῦτο refer ahead to δῶρον so that we might read the verse as, "and this (gift) is not of yourselves; the gift is of God."
If τοῦτο is cataphoric, it would be mean something like this: "and this is not of yourselves: God's gift." Though possible, I don't see how that this works in context, however.
Stephen
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 24th, 2012, 9:58 pm
by Mark Lightman
I agree with Barry that the antecedent of the neuter τοῦτο is most likely the overall process of salvation, τὸ σεσῳσμένον. On the other hand, I have no problem with πίστις as the antecedent because (1) in Greek you can say αὕτη ἐστιν πίστις or τούτ’ ἐστιν πίστις and (2) I happen to be a Calvinist. Furthermore, Barry’s
τοῦτο δὲ τὸ οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ δῶρον.
strikes me as an excellent Greek gloss for Roger’s excellent English gloss of the Greek of Eph 2:8b.
I would paraphrase the entire verse thus
ὑμῖν μὲν οὖν ταύτην τὴν ἐκ/ἀπὸ/παρὰ πίστεως σωτηρίαν [δ]έδωκεν [ὁ] Θεὸς διὰ/ἐκ τῆς γενούσης οὐ διὰ ὑμῶν χάριτος
.
Stephen wrote: If τοῦτο is cataphoric, it would be mean something like this: "and this is not of yourselves: God's gift." Though possible, I don't see how that this works in context, however.
Hi, Stephen,
That is exactly how Vambas renders the half verse:
Vambas wrote: καὶ τοῦτο δὲν εἶναι άπὸ σᾶς: Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον.
Unlike the other Modern Greek versions, he does not stick an ἀλλά before θεοῦ δῶρον, so it is possible that Vambas’ Greek paraphrase means the same thing as does your English paraphrase of Roger’s English gloss of Paul’s Greek of Eph 2:8b.
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 26th, 2012, 3:26 am
by timothy_p_mcmahon
Mark Lightman wrote:On the other hand, I have no problem with πίστις as the antecedent because (1) in Greek you can say αὕτη ἐστιν πίστις or τούτ’ ἐστιν πίστις
Mark:
Can you cite any examples of the neuter τοῦτο being used in this manner?
All the NT examples, at least, of τούτ’ ἐστιν introducing a non-neuter predicate are epexegetical, basically redefining the antecedent of τοῦτο:
Mark 7:2. και ιδοντες τινας των μαθητων αυτου κοιναις χερσιν τουτ εστιν ανιπτοις εσθιοντας αρτους εμεμψαντο
Philemon 12. συ δε αυτον τουτ εστιν τα εμα σπλαγχνα προσλαβου
Hebrews 2:14. ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον
Hebrews 7:5. και οι μεν εκ των υιων λευι την ιερατειαν λαμβανοντες εντολην εχουσιν αποδεκατουν τον λαον κατα τον νομον τουτ εστιν τους αδελφους αυτων
Hebrews 9:11. χριστος δε παραγενομενος αρχιερευς των μελλοντων αγαθων δια της μειζονος και τελειοτερας σκηνης ου χειροποιητου τουτ εστιν ου ταυτης της κτισεως
Hebrews 10:20. ην ενεκαινισεν ημιν οδον προσφατον και ζωσαν δια του καταπετασματος τουτ εστιν της σαρκος αυτου
Hebrews 13:15. δι αυτου ουν αναφερωμεν θυσιαν αινεσεως δια παντος τω θεω τουτ εστιν καρπον χειλεων ομολογουντων τω ονοματι αυτου
1 Peter 3:20. απειθησασιν ποτε οτε απεξεδεχετο η του θεου μακροθυμια εν ημεραις νωε κατασκευαζομενης κιβωτου εις ην ολιγαι τουτ εστιν οκτω ψυχαι διεσωθησαν δι υδατος
I don't see this pattern in Ephesians 2:8-9. The phrase τούτ’ ἐστιν does not appear in the passage.
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 26th, 2012, 8:31 am
by Mark Lightman
ἔγραψεν ὁ Τιμόθεος
Mark Lightman wrote:On the other hand, I have no problem with πίστις as the antecedent because (1) in Greek you can say αὕτη ἔστιν πίστις or τοῦτ’ ἔστιν πίστις
Mark:
Can you cite any examples of the neuter τοῦτο being used in this manner?
Hi, Timothy,
Plato’s Republic 432b:
τοῦτ’ ἔστι ἡ δικαιοσύνη.
I don't see this pattern in Ephesians 2:8-9. The phrase τούτ’ ἐστιν does not appear in the passage
.
Isn’t there an implied copulative after τοῦτο?
τοῦτο [ἔστιν] οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Re: Ephesians 2:8 - τοῦτο
Posted: January 26th, 2012, 11:17 am
by cwconrad
Mark Lightman wrote:ἔγραψεν ὁ Τιμόθεος
Mark Lightman wrote:On the other hand, I have no problem with πίστις as the antecedent because (1) in Greek you can say αὕτη ἔστιν πίστις or τοῦτ’ ἔστιν πίστις
Mark:
Can you cite any examples of the neuter τοῦτο being used in this manner?
Hi, Timothy,
Plato’s Republic 432b:
τοῦτ’ ἔστι ἡ δικαιοσύνη.
I don't see this pattern in Ephesians 2:8-9. The phrase τούτ’ ἐστιν does not appear in the passage
.
Isn’t there an implied copulative after τοῦτο?
τοῦτο [ἔστιν] οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
Plato, Rep 432b: τὰ μὲν τρία ἡμῖν ἐν τῇ πόλει κατῶπται, ὥς γε οὑτωσὶ δόξαι· τὸ δὲ δὴ λοιπὸν εἶδος, διʼ ὃ ἂν ἔτι ἀρετῆς μετέχοι πόλις, τί ποτʼ ἂν εἴη;
δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ἡ δικαιοσύνη
.δῆλον.
I understand τοῦτο here to refer back to τὸ λοιπὸν εἶδος, so that the sense is τὸ λοιπὸν εἶδος ἔστι ἡ δικαιοσύνη.
Eph. 2:8 Eph. 2:8 Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον.
Yes, there's an implicit ἔστι after τοῦτο, but I think the antecedent of τοῦτο in Eph 2:8 is, as has been proposed by others, the who proposition
Eph. 2:8 Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
-- not any single element within it: i.e. "the fact that you are saved through faith is not from you; it is God's gift." I don't see anything comparable at all in the cited text from Plato's Republic.