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In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 7:38 am
by Bill Ross
[1Co 12:3 MGNT] (3) διὸ γνωρίζω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐν πνεύματι θεοῦ λαλῶν λέγει ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν κύριος Ἰησοῦς εἰ μὴ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ
Wouldn't Darby's translation be more accurate than "Jesus is Lord"?:
[1Co 12:3 DBY] (3) I give you therefore to know, that no one, speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, says, Curse on Jesus; and no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 2:19 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Simply because it would be normal Greek to supply ἐστί with both phrases.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 3:05 pm
by Bill Ross
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 2:19 pm
Simply because it would be normal Greek to supply ἐστί with both phrases.
Thanks, Barry. I was more confused by the word order. Does this suggest emphasis or something?
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 5:55 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Bill Ross wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 3:05 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 2:19 pm
Simply because it would be normal Greek to supply ἐστί with both phrases.
Thanks, Barry. I was more confused by the word order. Does this suggest emphasis or something?
Could you be more specific? I don't see anything unusual about the word order.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 6:10 pm
by Bill Ross
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 5:55 pm
Bill Ross wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 3:05 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 2:19 pm
Simply because it would be normal Greek to supply ἐστί with both phrases.
Thanks, Barry. I was more confused by the word order. Does this suggest emphasis or something?
Could you be more specific? I don't see anything unusual about the word order.
Well then no worries. Peace.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 6:47 pm
by Eeli Kaikkonen
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 5:55 pm
Could you be more specific? I don't see anything unusual about the word order.
Well, "choice implies meaning" and all that... why it's κύριος Ἰησοῦς and not Ἰησοῦς κύριος?
I would say Ἰησοῦς is topic, κύριος is focus which is fronted for "emphasis". (Compare with ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς.)
In English it would be "Jesus is
curse[d]!" vs. "Jesus is
Lord!"
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 6:52 pm
by Bill Ross
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 6:47 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 5:55 pm
Could you be more specific? I don't see anything unusual about the word order.
Well, "choice implies meaning" and all that... why it's κύριος Ἰησοῦς and not Ἰησοῦς κύριος?
I would say Ἰησοῦς is topic, κύριος is focus which is fronted for "emphasis". (Compare with ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς.)
In English it would be "Jesus is
curse[d]!" vs. "Jesus is
Lord!"
Thanks, I thought that might be the case.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 28th, 2020, 7:00 pm
by Stephen Carlson
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑January 28th, 2020, 6:47 pm
Well, "choice implies meaning" and all that... why it's κύριος Ἰησοῦς and not Ἰησοῦς κύριος?
I would say Ἰησοῦς is topic, κύριος is focus which is fronted for "emphasis". (Compare with ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς.)
In English it would be "Jesus is
curse[d]!" vs. "Jesus is
Lord!"
I think that's right, and to answer Ross's question, it is this contrast with ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς that favors interpreting κύριος Ἰησοῦς as a complete predication.
Other reasons why "Lord Jesus" is not the best translation are that (1) the English looks like a direct address, but that really should be κύριε Ἰησοῦ in the vocative; (2) if it is really nominative, it is a subject without a predicate. Granted, neither of these are fatal objections on their own, but, coupled with the failure to fit the context as well as the alternative, there is nothing to commend "Lord Jesus" as a translation.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 29th, 2020, 3:54 am
by Eeli Kaikkonen
Compare also with the famous καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος in John 1:1.
Re: In 1 Corinthians 12:3, why is κύριος Ἰησοῦς usually rendered "Jesus is Lord"?
Posted: January 29th, 2020, 5:19 am
by Bill Ross
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑January 29th, 2020, 3:54 am
Compare also with the famous καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος in John 1:1.
That appears to have some overlap but is, I think, distinct, but I can only opine.
This is a contrast:
2 Cor 4:5 οὐ γὰρ ἑαυτοὺς κηρύσσομεν ἀλλὰ
Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν κύριον ἑαυτοὺς δὲ δούλους ὑμῶν διὰ Ἰησοῦν
But this is very similar:
Phil 2:11 καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι
κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός