Could the learned in Greek critique the grammatical arguments in my paper? I hope this is okay. If not, please delete at your leisure.
Here is a link to it. Thank you.
Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
How about Luke 2:37? Would you apply the same interpretation for the dative there?
καὶ αὐτὴ χήρα ἕως ἐτῶν ὀγδοήκοντα τεσσάρων, ἣ οὐκ ἀφίσατο τοῦ ἰεροῦ νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν λατρεύουσα νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν.
Did she worship fastings and requests or by fasting and making requests?
καὶ αὐτὴ χήρα ἕως ἐτῶν ὀγδοήκοντα τεσσάρων, ἣ οὐκ ἀφίσατο τοῦ ἰεροῦ νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν λατρεύουσα νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν.
Did she worship fastings and requests or by fasting and making requests?
Kimmo Huovila
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Re: Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
The latter obviously.
Perhaps it has something to do with the verb being in the participial form. My guess is that it's like the other two participial occurrences where no indirect object is explicitly stated (e.g., θεω), and νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν is an adverbial phrase modifying λατρεύουσα, in addition to νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν (also modifying the participle). So, because it's in the dative, one might think (nobody would though) that she is worshipping the fastings and prayers, but it's simply telling us the manner of her worshiping. Her worshipping was "with fastings and prayers" and "day and night."
I know what you were intending to convey. I should address this in my paper. Thank you sir.
Perhaps it has something to do with the verb being in the participial form. My guess is that it's like the other two participial occurrences where no indirect object is explicitly stated (e.g., θεω), and νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν is an adverbial phrase modifying λατρεύουσα, in addition to νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν (also modifying the participle). So, because it's in the dative, one might think (nobody would though) that she is worshipping the fastings and prayers, but it's simply telling us the manner of her worshiping. Her worshipping was "with fastings and prayers" and "day and night."
I know what you were intending to convey. I should address this in my paper. Thank you sir.
Re: Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
Actually I am lost when you state:Mike Baber wrote:The latter obviously.
Perhaps it has something to do with the verb being in the participial form. My guess is that it's like the other two participial occurrences where no indirect object is explicitly stated (e.g., θεω), and νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν is an adverbial phrase modifying λατρεύουσα, in addition to νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν (also modifying the participle). So, because it's in the dative, one might think (nobody would though) that she is worshipping the fastings and prayers, but it's simply telling us the manner of her worshiping. Her worshipping was "with fastings and prayers" and "day and night."
I know what you were intending to convey. I should address this in my paper. Thank you sir.
Why is it impossible that it means "the [ones] who serve [in/by] [the] spirit of God"?There is only one potential translation for οἱ πνεύματι θεοῦ λατρεύοντες, and that is, "Who serve the Spirit of God."
And what about Heb 8:5, 9:9, 9:14, 10:2, 13:10? The word in Heb 8:5 is not a participle. Also, the fact that both the dative of means and the "object" of this verb use the same grammatical case, it should be the context that determines the meaning. Am I missing something?
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Re: Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
Good points. As for the translation of "who serve [in/by] the spirit of God," Paul never uses that phrase elsewhere, i.e. "in the Spirit of God" or "by the Spirit of God." It's always just "in the Spirit" or "by the Spirit." Also, Paul then proceeds to use ἐν before the following nouns in the dative, but he doesn't do so before the phrase πνεύματι θεοῦ. What do you gather from the context that would support the translation of "who serve in the Spirit of God"?David Lim wrote:Actually I am lost when you state:Mike Baber wrote:The latter obviously.
Perhaps it has something to do with the verb being in the participial form. My guess is that it's like the other two participial occurrences where no indirect object is explicitly stated (e.g., θεω), and νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν is an adverbial phrase modifying λατρεύουσα, in addition to νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν (also modifying the participle). So, because it's in the dative, one might think (nobody would though) that she is worshipping the fastings and prayers, but it's simply telling us the manner of her worshiping. Her worshipping was "with fastings and prayers" and "day and night."
I know what you were intending to convey. I should address this in my paper. Thank you sir.Why is it impossible that it means "the [ones] who serve [in/by] [the] spirit of God"?There is only one potential translation for οἱ πνεύματι θεοῦ λατρεύοντες, and that is, "Who serve the Spirit of God."
And what about Heb 8:5, 9:9, 9:14, 10:2, 13:10? The word in Heb 8:5 is not a participle. Also, the fact that both the dative of means and the "object" of this verb use the same grammatical case, it should be the context that determines the meaning. Am I missing something?
Re: Critique of My Paper on Matthew 4:10 and Philippians 3:3
In my opinion, the absence of any adjectival phrase everywhere else never automatically implies impossibility of occurrence, as it is completely up to the author when to include it, especially if some emphasis on "whose spirit it is" is intended. In this case, it may serve to make it clear that "it is by God's spirit that we serve, and it is in Christ Jesus that we boast," and not simply "in spirit" which in general may not always refer to "the spirit of God" such as in Luke 1:17, John 4:23-24, Rom 1:9 (which is there specified as "my spirit"), Rom 12:11, 1 Cor 4:21, 1 Cor 5:3, 1 Cor 7:34...Mike Baber wrote:Good points. As for the translation of "who serve [in/by] the spirit of God," Paul never uses that phrase elsewhere, i.e. "in the Spirit of God" or "by the Spirit of God." It's always just "in the Spirit" or "by the Spirit."David Lim wrote:Actually I am lost when you state:Mike Baber wrote:The latter obviously.
Perhaps it has something to do with the verb being in the participial form. My guess is that it's like the other two participial occurrences where no indirect object is explicitly stated (e.g., θεω), and νηστείαις καὶ δεήσεσιν is an adverbial phrase modifying λατρεύουσα, in addition to νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν (also modifying the participle). So, because it's in the dative, one might think (nobody would though) that she is worshipping the fastings and prayers, but it's simply telling us the manner of her worshiping. Her worshipping was "with fastings and prayers" and "day and night."
I know what you were intending to convey. I should address this in my paper. Thank you sir.Why is it impossible that it means "the [ones] who serve [in/by] [the] spirit of God"?There is only one potential translation for οἱ πνεύματι θεοῦ λατρεύοντες, and that is, "Who serve the Spirit of God."
And what about Heb 8:5, 9:9, 9:14, 10:2, 13:10? The word in Heb 8:5 is not a participle. Also, the fact that both the dative of means and the "object" of this verb use the same grammatical case, it should be the context that determines the meaning. Am I missing something?
And 1 Cor 6:11 does have "εν τω πνευματι του θεου ημων" = "in the spirit of our God".
To me, "πνευματι θεου λατρευοντες" uses a dative of means, whereas "καυχωμενοι εν χριστω ιησου" and "εν σαρκι πεποιθοτες" are not. The first would mean "who serve [by] [the] spirit of God" but the other two would mean "who boast in (with respect to / according to) Christ Jesus" and "have confidence in (with respect to / according to) flesh".Mike Baber wrote:Also, Paul then proceeds to use ἐν before the following nouns in the dative, but he doesn't do so before the phrase πνεύματι θεοῦ. What do you gather from the context that would support the translation of "who serve in the Spirit of God"?
δαυιδ λιμ