"written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Post Reply
Stephen Nelson
Posts: 85
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

"written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Stephen Nelson »

Revelation 13:8 states that the first beast will be worshiped by the following people:
“...all who dwell on earth, whose name has not been written in *the slain Lamb’s* book of life from the foundation of the world”
That seems to me like a reasonable rendering of the Greek:
“οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς *τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου* ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου”.
I’m having trouble seeing this from the perspective of the NIV translators; and other scholars who argue that what this verse is actually suggesting is that the lamb was somehow “slain from the foundation of the world,” suggesting that this merely implies that “redemption was determined” from that point in time (cf. 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Can anyone here steel-man the argument for the “slain from the foundation of the world” interpretation (in terms of Greek), based on anything other than the proximity of the ostensible antecedent? This really seems to boil down to objectively correct Greek exegesis.

David Matthewson, in his Baylor Handbook of Revelation (p. 174) makes his case for the traditional English word order as follows:
“ἀπὸ καταβολῆς. Temporal. Indicates the time from which an event occurred (Porter 1992, 147). There is some question as to what this phrase modifies. On the one hand, it could modify ἐσφαγμένου, which is its closest antecedent (Charles, 1.354; Mounce, 256; Osborne, 503). This would suggest that Christ’s death was ordained from the foundation of the world (Charles, 1.354). Scholars that hold this position point to 1 Pet 1:19, 20. However, Swete (167) has argued that it should modify γέγραπται based on the parallel with 17:8 (see also Smalley, 343; Aune, 2.746–47; Beale, 702). While either view is possible, it is preferrable to take ἀπὸ καταβολῆς as modifying ἐσφαγμένου, which is the closest antecedent (“it is unlikely that the concluding temporal clause goes with ‘written,’ since twelve words separate them”; Beale, 702), suggesting that the author is referring to God’s plan of redemption being determined “from the foundation of the world.”
I honestly cannot see (for the life of me) where Matthewson is getting “God’s plan of redemption being determined” from “ἐσφαγμένον”. It seems like “has been written from the foundation of the world” is a fundamentally different concept from “slain from the foundation of the world”. The interpretations must be mutually exclusive (and not intentionally ambiguous). I suspect that theological biases may be pushing people away from what I would consider a plain reading of the text.

The perfect “οὐ γέγραπται…” seems to connect rather seamlessly with the participial phrase “…ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου,” because those names “have been written” from the initial point in time, up until the time of the event described. However, I don't see a clear connection to the aorist participle ἐσφαγμένον (or clear rationale for using the aorist in this context).

Additionally, the participle is in predicate position (τὸ ἀρνίον τὸ ἐσφαγμένον) would be equivalent/interchangeable with the attributive position (τὸ ἐσφαγμένον ἀρνίον). So, the author could have substituted the attributive position and there would then be no possible alternate interpretation:
“οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς *τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀρνίου* ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου”.
Revelation 5:12 also supports the reading of “the slain lamb” as a noun phrase, where the “slaying” is not tied to the “foundation of the world”:

Revelation 5:12
“…Ἄξιόν ἐστιν *τὸ ἀρνίον τὸ ἐσφαγμένον* λαβεῖν τὴν δύναμιν καὶ πλοῦτον καὶ σοφίαν καὶ ἰσχὺν καὶ τιμὴν καὶ δόξαν καὶ εὐλογίαν.”
"Written from the foundation of the world" is further supported by a nearly identical reference in Revelation 17:8 that uses the same perfect of γέγραπται:

Revelation 17:8
“…οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν *οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου*”
Traditionally, this verse was always rendered in Middle-Modern English with the Greek (and Latin) syntax:

Wycliffe:
“…whos names ben not writun in the book of lijf of the lomb, that *was slayn fro the bigynnyng of the world*.”
Tyndale:
“…whose names are not written in the boke of lyfe of the lambe which *was kylled from the begynnynge of the worlde*.”
Great Bible:
“…whose names are not written in the boke of lyfe of the lambe, which *was kylled from the begynnynge of the worlde*.”
Geneva Bible:
“…whose names are not written in the booke of life of that Lambe, which *was slaine from the beginning of the world*.”
KJV:
“…whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb *slain from the foundation of the world*.”
The only leading modern translation that ardently sticks with the traditional word order is the NIV, which is so emphatic that it duplicates the term "Lamb":
“…all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb *who was slain from the creation of the world*.”
For what it’s worth, I checked 4 different Modern Greek translations. And aside from Vamvas (who simply maintains the AG word order), only Spyros Filos explicitly renders the the reading “who is slain from the creation of the world”:

Vamvas:
“…των οποίων τα ονόματα δεν εγράφησαν εν τω βιβλίω της ζωής *του Αρνίου του εσφαγμένου από καταβολής κόσμου*”
Spyros Filos:
“…των οποίων τα ονόματα δεν γράφτηκαν στο βιβλίο τής ζωής τού Aρνίου, *που είναι σφαγμένο από τη δημιουργία τού κόσμου*.”
Today’s Greek Version:
“…που το όνομά τους δε γράφτηκε στο βιβλίο της ζωής *του σφαγμένου Αρνίου* από τότε που δημιουργήθηκε ο κόσμος.”
NTV:
“…τῶν ὁποίων τὸ ὄνομα δὲν ἔχει γραφῆ, ἀπὸ τὸν καιρὸν τῆς δημιουργίας τοῦ κόσμου, εἰς τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς *τοῦ Ἀρνίου ποὺ εἶχε σφαγῆ*.”
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4158
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Did you have a question about Greek? If so, could you please state it more simply, and keep the focus on Greek?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Nelson
Posts: 85
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Stephen Nelson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm Did you have a question about Greek? If so, could you please state it more simply, and keep the focus on Greek?
Does anyone here believe that “ἐσφαγμένον ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου” is what the author intended to be understood; that the lamb was "slaughtered from the foundation of the world"; and, hence, that the NIV's translation is objectively correct?

Is there a good reason to accept the explanation that ἐσφαγμένον does NOT refer to Jesus' crucifixion specifically, but rather that it refers to "God’s plan of redemption being determined”. Is there any basis for that assertion?

Can anyone explain (in terms of Greek), why γέγραπται is LESS LIKELY to be the correct antecedent, in terms of what the author intended to convey to the reader?

I’ve presented all of the reasons why I believe γέγραπται is probably the correct antecedent. Did I miss anything? I am open to possibility that I'm wrong. And, if so, I'm hoping someone might be able to explain why I'm wrong.

Is the NIV's reading/interpretation based on ANYTHING other than the proximity of ἐσφαγμένον and ἀπό? They are indeed right next to each other. I can't deny that fact. But, what other evidence (if any) might someone marshal to adjudicate between the 2 competing interpretations?

Matthewson’s entire argument, as I understand it, is that ἀπὸ καταβολῆς modifies ἐσφαγμένου simply because it’s the closest antecedent, full stop. He offers no other reason or justification. And he cites Baele: “...since twelve words separate them...”.

OK. So, is a 12-words gap an unprecedented volume of words for this author to expect the reader to look over (in the NT or in Revelation in particular)? Does Revelation exhibit any other wide gaps like this? Or is this the only instance where the author could be doing this?
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4158
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Nelson wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:50 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote: September 21st, 2022, 4:12 pm Did you have a question about Greek? If so, could you please state it more simply, and keep the focus on Greek?
Does anyone here believe that “ἐσφαγμένον ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου” is what the author intended to be understood; that the lamb was "slaughtered from the foundation of the world"; and, hence, that the NIV's translation is objectively correct?

Is there a good reason to accept the explanation that ἐσφαγμένον does NOT refer to Jesus' crucifixion specifically, but rather that it refers to "God’s plan of redemption being determined”. Is there any basis for that assertion?
I believe that the Greek is ambiguous and can legitimately be understood more than one way. In fact, that's what the Baylor Handbook you quoted from said. I often like the Exegetical Summaries when I want to understand the basis for reading a given passage more than one way. It gives three possible interpretations, with an argument for each:
QUESTION—The phrase ‘from the foundation of the world’ can modify either ‘slain’ or ‘written’. Which one is indicated here?
1. It modifies ‘slain’ [Alf, BNTC, ICC, Lns, NIC, TNTC; KJV, NIV, NLT, REB]: the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. This interpretation is supported by 1 Peter 1:19, 20 where the death of Jesus is seen as predestined from the world’s creation [Alf, BNTC, Lns, TNTC]. It is more natural to understand that this phrase modifies ‘slain’ as it immediately follows it while it is separated from the word ‘written’ by twelve words [BNTC, NIC].
2. It modifies ‘written’ [Be, EC, Hu, Ld, NTC, Sw, TH, Wal, WBC; CEV, NAB, NET, NRSV, TEV, TNT]: name not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. In Revelation 17:8 this same phrase occurs modifying ‘written’ and there is no ambiguity [Be, Hu, NTC, Sw; NET]. This interpretation is also supported by Matthew 25:34 and Ephesians 1:4 [Sw].
3. It modifies ‘people’ [NCV]: all people since the beginning of the world whose names.…

Ronald Trail, An Exegetical Summary of Revelation 12–22, 2nd ed. (Dallas, TX: SIL International, 2008), 44.
The UBS Translator's Handbook says this:
In Greek the phrase “from the foundation of the earth” comes at the end of the verse, immediately following the Lamb that was slain. Most translations, relying in part on 17.8 “from the foundation of the earth” with the verbal phrase “been written”. See TEV REV.13.8 “except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living.” Some, however, connect it with “the Lamb that was slain”: PHPS, NIV REV.13.8, and REB REV.13.8 (a change from NEB); and this understanding of the verse is supported by some commentators (for example, Sweet, Caird) who point out that such a statement is not without parallel in other New Testament passages (see especially 1 Peter 1.19-20). A translator must decide which interpretation to follow; it may be possible to have one in the text and the other one in a footnote.

All in all, it seems preferable to go along with RSV, TEV, and others. The various items of information should be properly related to one another in terms of the development of the narrative. Something like the following may serve as a model for this verse:
• Everyone on earth will worship him, except those whose names were written in the book of the living before the world was created. That book belongs to the Lamb who was killed. Or:
• … whose names were recorded in the book in which God has written down before the world was created the names of those who really have life. That book belongs to the Lamb whom people killed.
I do think both interpretations are possible. And there often IS ambiguity in the original Greek text.

Given the number of commentaries and translations that have taken each approach, I think it's also good to include a footnote with the other interpretation. Which the NIV does with this footnote:
Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Nelson
Posts: 85
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Stephen Nelson »

Thank you for that.

Insofar as the sentence might be ambiguous, I don’t think it’s intentionally ambiguous, since the author probably had one (and only one) antecedent in mind: “γέγραπται” or “ἐσφαγμένου” (or I suppose “οἱ κατοικοῦντες” is a grammatical possibility that I hadn’t considered).

I posed the question:

“Is the NIV's reading/interpretation based on ANYTHING other than the proximity of ἐσφαγμένον and ἀπό?”

It seems like the answer to that is, YES. There is one additional justification given in the commentaries cited thus far:

1 Peter 1:19-20
“ἀλλὰ τιμίῳ αἵματι ὡς ἀμνοῦ ἀμώμου καὶ ἀσπίλου Χριστοῦ, *προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου*, φανερωθέντος δὲ ἐπ’ ἐσχάτου τῶν χρόνων δι’ ὑμᾶς”
It seems the line of reasoning here is that this expression (by another author in another book) somehow sets a theological precedent for interpreting the Apocalypse of John, whereby these 2 ideas are either synonymous (at best) or analogous (at worst):

1. ὁ ἀμνὸς (τιμίῳ αἵματι) … *προεγνωσμένος* πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
2. τὸ ἀρνίον … *ἐσφαγμένον* ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

So, if I’m not mistaken, that’s really it. That sums up the reasoning of all of the commentators in support of the traditional reading. Did I miss anything?
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4158
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Nelson wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 5:58 pm So, if I’m not mistaken, that’s really it. That sums up the reasoning of all of the commentators in support of the traditional reading. Did I miss anything?
Well, I certainly haven't read all of the commentators, and I am not sure which meaning the author had in mind. I tend to read it the same way you do, but I also see both readings as reasonable. I don't see the same imbalance of evidence that you do.

A couple more data points. Whatever you think of 12 words and such, I think it's really obvious what this part of the sentence would mean on its own:
ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
And it's really obvious what this part of the sentence would mean on its own:
οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς
So what does it mean if you paste the two together? Certainly it's plausible to think that it means the same thing that the two parts would mean independently if divided up this way.

Also, the textual history if this is kind of interesting. How exactly do these manuscripts differ? Does that tell us anything?

https://greekcntr.org/collation/index.htm?66013008
Attachments
rev.13.8.png
rev.13.8.png (137.27 KiB) Viewed 2453 times
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Nelson
Posts: 85
Joined: April 28th, 2019, 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Stephen Nelson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 6:37 pm ...I am not sure which meaning the author had in mind. I tend to read it the same way you do, but I also see both readings as reasonable. I don't see the same imbalance of evidence that you do.

[...]

Also, the textual history if this is kind of interesting. How exactly do these manuscripts differ? Does that tell us anything?

https://greekcntr.org/collation/index.htm?66013008
The textual variants seem pretty minor. I don’t think they shed much light on this particular question.

If I’m reading this wrong, and John wants to convey the idea that the lamb "was slaughtered from the foundation of the world,” he’s seem to be implying, “τὸ ἀρνίον ἐσφάχθη ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.” That's pretty much how the MG Spyros Filos translation handles it: "που είναι σφαγμένο από τη δημιουργία τού κόσμου"

I struggle to understand how the lamb can be σφαγμένον from that point it time? Is it the "foundation of the NEW world?" I can't make sense of it. But hey, I guess it’s a weird book… Maybe it's not supposed to make perfect sense.

However...

If the author is simply conveying that the names “have been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” (γέγραπται ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου), that makes perfect sense. The same statement is unambiguously repeated in 17:8 verbatim. It seems like a natural reading in this book. But I do understand why traditionalists probably favor the traditional reading. I just don’t see how it means, “God’s plan of redemption”. It seems more like an “act” of redemption that took place mere decades earlier.

I feel like the author may be rolling in his grave
Tony Pope
Posts: 134
Joined: July 14th, 2011, 6:20 pm

Re: "written/slain from the foundation of the world" - Revelation 13:8

Post by Tony Pope »

That ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου is separated from γέγραπται by twelve words is not an argument I find convincing. Nine of those words form one phrase ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου. That phrase states where the names are on record, and the next phrase ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου states at what point in time that record was in effect.

The same structure occurs in 17.8, as has been mentioned, first where the record is and then when it took effect. Might it be that the original reader would have expected that order of phrases, the location of the record being more nuclear and the time of it more peripheral?

It seems to me also that the original readers would already have read the earlier chapters (esp. chapter 5) and would have in mind the implication that the Lamb's being killed was an event in recent history. Therefore, even though on the purely grammatical level it would be possible to construe ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου with ἐσφαγμένου, that construal would not occur to them. As Stephen N. says, construal with γέγραπται "seems like a natural reading in this book."
Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”