Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:I think we agree that a property owner can be called a κτήτωρ and that the examples in BDAG show it in this context. Etymologically, it means 'owner'. I don't think you have shown any evidence about what other kinds of ownership it can or cannot entail. I would consider that an open question.
Then perhaps we have different epistemological preconceptions about how meaning is known.
What evidence do you think you've shown?

If you have a method for demonstrating this kind of thing, I'd like to know concretely what it is. So far, it feels like speculation without evidence.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

I'm not sure we are talking within the same frame-work of discussion. I don't think I have proved anything or shown evidence of anything. I have explored the meaning and usage of one word in one sense.

I have no idea now, nor any previously of what concrete things you are talking about.

I am happy to accept that κτήτωρ refers only to houses and property, that it is used in official or legal situations, that a κτήτωρ in Egypt in the second century was subject to a tax or due, that the could sell and having sold ceased to be κτήτωρ, that the property owned was entered in a register of properties and that redivision of cadastra could be done by an owner. Those are the ways that my understanding of κτήτωρ has been enhanced by this thread. There is so many better ways to arrive at understanding than evidence and proving.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:I am happy to accept that κτήτωρ refers only to houses and property
Why? What makes you think it cannot refer to owners of other things? I think I've repeated this question enough times now.

None of the lexicons I have say that. κτάομαι means own. Adding -τωρ turns it into a noun indicating the person that owns: κτήτωρ. The lexicons all say it means something along the lines of 'owner'.

It's clear that it can be used to refer to owners of houses and property. Nothing in this thread tells me that it cannot be used to refer to owners of other things.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen, do you have a subscription to TLG? Because the kinds of questions you're asking can only be answered with the access to a large corpus that TLG provides.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Carlson wrote:Stephen, do you have a subscription to TLG? Because the kinds of questions you're asking can only be answered with the access to a large corpus that TLG provides.
Even a free subscription can be helpful.

Here's one place that I think κτήτωρ refers to owners of slaves:

Diod. Sic. 34/5.2.31
οἱ δὲ στρατηγοὶ κωλύειν μὲν ἐπεχείρουν τὴν ἀπόνοιαν τῶν οἰκετῶν͵ κολάζειν δὲ οὐ
τολμῶντες διὰ τὴν ἰσχὺν καὶ τὸ βάρος τῶν κυρίων ἠναγκάζοντο περιορᾶν τὴν ἐπαρχίαν
λῃστευομένην. οἱ πλεῖστοι γὰρ τῶν κτητόρων ἱππεῖς ὄντες ἐντελεῖς τῶν Ῥωμαίων͵ καὶ
κριταὶ τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐπαρχιῶν κατηγορουμένοις στρατηγοῖς γινόμενοι͵ φοβεροὶ ταῖς
ἀρχαῖς ὑπῆρχον.

The governors tried to repress the madness of the slaves, but did not dare to punish them, and because
of the power and strength of the masters they were forced to disregard the plundering of the province.
For since most of the owners were recognised Roman knights, and were judges for charges against
governors from provinces, they caused fear in the governors.
Incidentally, the Duke Papyrus Archive also has a useful search engine. But the papyrii are often harder to read, and harder to find translations for when you're not sure.

It looks like this word is sometimes used as a title:
† ὁ κύρ(ιος) Νεῖλος [ὀπ]τίων
ὁ κῦρις(*) Θεόφι̣λ̣ος
ὁ κύρ(ιος) Στρατή[γιο]ς κτήτωρ
ὁ κύρ(ιος) Ἰωάν̣ν[η]ς̣ Πτολεμαίου
5ὁ κύρ(ιος) Πανούφιος νομικ(ός) †
In this papyrus, is it really saying "your landlord by the grace of God"? I don't think it's likely to be saying "your owner by the grace of God" or "your owner together with God".
† Φλ(άουιος) Πεττήριο(ς) σὺν θ(εῷ) [κτή]τωρ ὑμῖν †
παρ(άσ)χ(ετε) Ἰωάνν[η]ς(*) καμηλ(ίτῃ) ἐκ τ(οῦ) σίτ(ου) α(*) ἰνδ(ικτίονος) (ὑπὲρ) μισθ(οῦ)
σίτ(ου) ἀρτ(άβας) κδ εἴκοσι δεσσαρα(*) μ(όνας). ἐγρ(άφη) μ(ηνὶ) Φ[αρ]μ̣(οῦθι) θ ἰνδ(ικτίονος) γ †
☧ Εὐφημία ἐσιμίοσα(*) τὰς το[ῦ σ]ίτ(ου) ἀρτ(άβας) εἴκο-
5σι τέσσαρας ἐκ το\ῦ/ σίτ(ου) δευτέρας ἰν[δ(ικτίονος) ̣ ̣] ̣θ( )
τρίτης ἰνδ(ικτίονος) [τ]ὰς (καὶ) δ(ο)θ(είσας) Ἰ(*)ωάννῃ [ -ca.?- ] ἐννα(και)δεκά[τῃ] τῆς αὐτ(ῆς) ἰνδ(ικτίονος)
Two similar uses are found here and here.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:Stephen, do you have a subscription to TLG?
I considered subscribing a couple of years ago, but it is not easy to access through a VPN. Part of the TLG site's login proceedure is blocked for VPN by their server, and part is blocked by the great fire wall. Even though I have a complimentary limited corpus subscription, I have never actually logged in. The attempted log ins fail a few times then I see that I am logged in as a guest. It is not the problem of the account details, but of the log in. There is no indication from the free-trial subscription that the paid subscription would successfully log in.
Stephen Carlson wrote:Because the kinds of questions you're asking can only be answered with the access to a large corpus that TLG provides.
Having access to the extent of known texts would expand the basis for decision making. Yes.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jonathan Robie wrote:Here's one place that I think κτήτωρ refers to owners of slaves:

Diod. Sic. 34/5.2.31
οἱ δὲ στρατηγοὶ κωλύειν μὲν ἐπεχείρουν τὴν ἀπόνοιαν τῶν οἰκετῶν͵ κολάζειν δὲ οὐ
τολμῶντες διὰ τὴν ἰσχὺν καὶ τὸ βάρος τῶν κυρίων ἠναγκάζοντο περιορᾶν τὴν ἐπαρχίαν
λῃστευομένην. οἱ πλεῖστοι γὰρ τῶν κτητόρων ἱππεῖς ὄντες ἐντελεῖς τῶν Ῥωμαίων͵ καὶ
κριταὶ τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐπαρχιῶν κατηγορουμένοις στρατηγοῖς γινόμενοι͵ φοβεροὶ ταῖς
ἀρχαῖς ὑπῆρχον.

The governors tried to repress the madness of the slaves, but did not dare to punish them, and because
of the power and strength of the masters they were forced to disregard the plundering of the province.
For since most of the owners were recognised Roman knights, and were judges for charges against
governors from provinces, they caused fear in the governors.
The Attalus website also has the interpretation "land owners" for κτήτορες, while the relationship between master and slave uses our familiar κύριοι (I have also taken the liberty to underline some things in your quote to make my point clearer :twisted: ):
When the affairs of Sicily, after the overthrow of Carthage, had remained successful and prosperous for the space of sixty years, at length war with the slaves broke out for the following reasons. The Sicilians, through the enjoyment of a long peace, grew very rich, and bought up an abundance of slaves; who being driven in droves like so many herds of cattle from the different places where they were bred and brought up, were branded with certain marks burnt on their bodies. 2 Those that were young, they used for shepherds, others for such services as they had occasion. But their masters were very strict and severe with them, and took no care to provide either necessary food or clothing for them, so that most of them were forced to rob and steal, to get these necessities: so that all places were full of slaughters and murders, as if an army of thieves and robbers had been dispersed all over the island. 3 The governors of the provinces, to tell the truth, did what they could to suppress them; but they did not dare punish them, because the masters, who possessed the slaves, were rich and powerful. Therefore every governor was forced to connive at the thefts and rapines that were committed in the province. For many of the landowners (κτήτορες) were Roman knights, and because they judged the accusations brought against the governors for their conduct in the provinces, they were a terror to the governors themselves.
That of course is an interpretation.
Jonathan Robie wrote:It looks like this word is sometimes used as a title:
† ὁ κύρ(ιος) Νεῖλος [ὀπ]τίων
ὁ κῦρις(*) Θεόφι̣λ̣ος
ὁ κύρ(ιος) Στρατή[γιο]ς κτήτωρ
ὁ κύρ(ιος) Ἰωάν̣ν[η]ς̣ Πτολεμαίου
5ὁ κύρ(ιος) Πανούφιος νομικ(ός) †
Yes. He must have owned the property (house, estate and lands) before he established the monastery (not "temple" in the 6th century surely) on it. It seems like an extension of the idea of the landlord - tenant relationship, but that the profits of the land supported the monks not the "owner".
Jonathan Robie wrote:In this papyrus, is it really saying "your landlord by the grace of God"? I don't think it's likely to be saying "your owner by the grace of God" or "your owner together with God".
† Φλ(άουιος) Πεττήριο(ς) σὺν θ(εῷ) [κτή]τωρ ὑμῖν †
παρ(άσ)χ(ετε) Ἰωάνν[η]ς(*) καμηλ(ίτῃ) ἐκ τ(οῦ) σίτ(ου) α(*) ἰνδ(ικτίονος) (ὑπὲρ) μισθ(οῦ)
σίτ(ου) ἀρτ(άβας) κδ εἴκοσι δεσσαρα(*) μ(όνας). ἐγρ(άφη) μ(ηνὶ) Φ[αρ]μ̣(οῦθι) θ ἰνδ(ικτίονος) γ †
☧ Εὐφημία ἐσιμίοσα(*) τὰς το[ῦ σ]ίτ(ου) ἀρτ(άβας) εἴκο-
5σι τέσσαρας ἐκ το\ῦ/ σίτ(ου) δευτέρας ἰν[δ(ικτίονος) ̣ ̣] ̣θ( )
τρίτης ἰνδ(ικτίονος) [τ]ὰς (καὶ) δ(ο)θ(είσας) Ἰ(*)ωάννῃ [ -ca.?- ] ἐννα(και)δεκά[τῃ] τῆς αὐτ(ῆς) ἰνδ(ικτίονος)
Two similar uses are found here and here.
How about this as an interpretation?
Flavius Beberius with God's help, your landlord.
  • Hand over to John the camel driver, from the grain in the first (should be "second") year of the indiction as a payment to the value of 24 artabas of grain only (?). This letter is being written in the month of Baramouda during the 9 year of the third indiction.
    I the beloved of Christ Euphemia am signing for the 24 artabas of grain, (taken) from the grain of the second year of the indiction ... of the third indiction the also given to John nineteen of the same indiction.
The antonym of κτήτωρ, viz. ἀκτήμων, doesn't seem to indicate being limited to property.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Stephen, do you have a subscription to TLG?
I considered subscribing a couple of years ago, but it is not easy to access through a VPN. Part of the TLG site's login proceedure is blocked for VPN by their server, and part is blocked by the great fire wall. Even though I have a complimentary limited corpus subscription, I have never actually logged in. The attempted log ins fail a few times then I see that I am logged in as a guest. It is not the problem of the account details, but of the log in. There is no indication from the free-trial subscription that the paid subscription would successfully log in.
Well, that's frustrating.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Because the kinds of questions you're asking can only be answered with the access to a large corpus that TLG provides.
Having access to the extent of known texts would expand the basis for decision making. Yes.
I'm trying to a do a reasonably size corpus of certain lexemes in 1 Cor 11:2-16. It's hard work to get a solid feel their meanings.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Because the kinds of questions you're asking can only be answered with the access to a large corpus that TLG provides.
Having access to the extent of known texts would expand the basis for decision making. Yes.
I'm trying to a do a reasonably size corpus of certain lexemes in 1 Cor 11:2-16. It's hard work to get a solid feel their meanings.
Being able to read the context of what you find is an advantage. :D
Methods, learning and process are all essential, but when the science is all said and done, interaction with language comes down to art and leaves you in the vulnerability of subjective choices.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Here's one place that I think κτήτωρ refers to owners of slaves:

Diod. Sic. 34/5.2.31
οἱ δὲ στρατηγοὶ κωλύειν μὲν ἐπεχείρουν τὴν ἀπόνοιαν τῶν οἰκετῶν͵ κολάζειν δὲ οὐ
τολμῶντες διὰ τὴν ἰσχὺν καὶ τὸ βάρος τῶν κυρίων ἠναγκάζοντο περιορᾶν τὴν ἐπαρχίαν
λῃστευομένην. οἱ πλεῖστοι γὰρ τῶν κτητόρων ἱππεῖς ὄντες ἐντελεῖς τῶν Ῥωμαίων͵ καὶ
κριταὶ τοῖς ἀπὸ τῶν ἐπαρχιῶν κατηγορουμένοις στρατηγοῖς γινόμενοι͵ φοβεροὶ ταῖς
ἀρχαῖς ὑπῆρχον.

The governors tried to repress the madness of the slaves, but did not dare to punish them, and because
of the power and strength of the masters they were forced to disregard the plundering of the province.
For since most of the owners were recognised Roman knights, and were judges for charges against
governors from provinces, they caused fear in the governors.
The Attalus website also has the interpretation "land owners" for κτήτορες, while the relationship between master and slave uses our familiar κύριοι (I have also taken the liberty to underline some things in your quote to make my point clearer :twisted: ):
When the affairs of Sicily, after the overthrow of Carthage, had remained successful and prosperous for the space of sixty years, at length war with the slaves broke out for the following reasons. The Sicilians, through the enjoyment of a long peace, grew very rich, and bought up an abundance of slaves; who being driven in droves like so many herds of cattle from the different places where they were bred and brought up, were branded with certain marks burnt on their bodies. 2 Those that were young, they used for shepherds, others for such services as they had occasion. But their masters were very strict and severe with them, and took no care to provide either necessary food or clothing for them, so that most of them were forced to rob and steal, to get these necessities: so that all places were full of slaughters and murders, as if an army of thieves and robbers had been dispersed all over the island. 3 The governors of the provinces, to tell the truth, did what they could to suppress them; but they did not dare punish them, because the masters, who possessed the slaves, were rich and powerful. Therefore every governor was forced to connive at the thefts and rapines that were committed in the province. For many of the landowners (κτήτορες) were Roman knights, and because they judged the accusations brought against the governors for their conduct in the provinces, they were a terror to the governors themselves.
That of course is an interpretation.
Bibliotheque Historique has masters here for κτήτωρ:
la plupart de ces maîtres étaient des chevaliers romains
I think it's clear from the context that the same people described as τῶν κυρίων are also described as τῶν κτητόρων. It's possible that this second term is used to describe them as landowners, and it seems likely that slaveowners would also be landowners who might also be knights, but this is pure speculation.

Suppose we were doing either set of synonyms and antonyms related to κτήτωρ for a new version of Louw and Nida or a paper on the concept of ownership in Hellenistic Greek as understood through the word κτήτωρ and other related words. I think we would have to note both interpretations as possible and go looking for other contexts where certain terms occur together. In some cases, more than one interpretation is possible, so you have to leave your options open until there's enough evidence to make a definitive decision. It takes work and time.

I suppose I would also consider the concept of "owner" in other languages and see if I can find examples where the same concept is present in Greek, e.g. how do ancient Greek texts describe the relationship between a dog and its owner, a sword and its owner, etc.

But language is flexible and creative. We don't usually talk about the owner of a pair of glasses, but people write owner's manuals for glasses. In English, it would be dangerous to say that the word 'owner' is not used for a pair of glasses even if we have a hard time finding examples of that in a small corpus. On the other hand, if there were a specific term used to describe owning a pair of glasses, a dictionary would tell us to use that term rather than 'owner'. I'm thinking of German, where 'essen' means eating done by humans and 'fressen' means eating done by animals.
Stephen Hughes wrote:Methods, learning and process are all essential, but when the science is all said and done, interaction with language comes down to art and leaves you in the vulnerability of subjective choices.
This definitely involves interpretation, but interpretation in light of the available evidence, and gathering and interpreting that evidence takes focused time. Informed interpretation is still somewhat subjective, but careful and systematic.

A good lexicon is going to be much better than the intuition of a non-native speaker of a language. Comparing several lexicons is better. To do better than the lexicons for a given word requires quite a bit of careful work.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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