John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

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David Lim
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by David Lim »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:I find it difficult to get into your thought. It seems like you are willing to rewrite the grammar of Greek verb. There might be something in it, but it requires more than couple of internet posts. Until then I'll stick to the old one. I'll still try to understand your point, but right now I agree with Jason:
[...]
Although I believe you think it's logically consistent in Greek, too, I don't believe it is consistent. The present tense just doesn't work that way. You still haven't shown paralles which can't be explained by well-established categories. You only explained the perfectly good explanations away by saying that conventional classification is perhaps not really valid. Not very convincing.
Sure! I am not trying to convince anyone, but I am just pointing out the inadequacies of the present "established" system of categories. Relevant to this is the proposition of the categories of the "gnomic present", "gnomic aorist", "gnomic perfect", "historical present"... Instead of those numerous categories, I proposed a more fundamental and simpler view. That is all. I mentioned that I don't have any resources, so of course it is fine with me if anyone doesn't want to consider my proposition based on my lack of evidence.

By the way, Jason, I don't understand what you are saying. I took all pieces into account. "πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι" forces the situation to be in the past, in the time before Abraham, and "ειμι" was chosen to force the time in focus to be that very time, exactly as the context of a historical present forces the situation to be in the past, and the present verb was used to force the time in focus to be in the past, so that the audience is given the perspective of an observer at that time. As I said, it is fine if you disagree, but I don't think you can say that I am simply eliminating the difficult part of the sentence to produce something logically consistent in English.
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cwconrad
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by cwconrad »

I certainly have made no exhaustive search of all that's been written on this verse, but I wonder if it has been realted to Ps. 90:2 = LXX Ps. 89:2 Psa. 89:2 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι
καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην
καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ.
MT Ps 90:2 בְּטֶ֤רֶם ׀ הָ֘רִ֤ים יֻלָּ֗דוּ וַתְּח֣וֹלֵֽל אֶ֣רֶץ וְתֵבֵ֑ל וּֽמֵעוֹלָ֥ם עַד־ע֝וֹלָ֗ם אַתָּ֥ה אֵֽל׃

Probably so.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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David Lim
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by David Lim »

cwconrad wrote:I certainly have made no exhaustive search of all that's been written on this verse, but I wonder if it has been realted to Ps. 90:2 = LXX Ps. 89:2 Psa. 89:2 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι
καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην
καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ.
MT Ps 90:2 בְּטֶ֤רֶם ׀ הָ֘רִ֤ים יֻלָּ֗דוּ וַתְּח֣וֹלֵֽל אֶ֣רֶץ וְתֵבֵ֑ל וּֽמֵעוֹלָ֥ם עַד־ע֝וֹלָ֗ם אַתָּ֥ה אֵֽל׃

Probably so.
Yes I think so too. Thanks for mentioning this, because I forgot to search for "προ". And I notice also that "εως του αιωνος" doesn't normally go with the present tense "συ ει" either, which here can neither be historical present nor have a perfect sense, so like in John 8:58 I see nothing wrong with taking the verb to be tied to the various times in focus, "απο του αιωνος" all the way "εως του αιωνος" respectively.
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by cwconrad »

David Lim wrote:
cwconrad wrote:I certainly have made no exhaustive search of all that's been written on this verse, but I wonder if it has been realted to Ps. 90:2 = LXX Ps. 89:2 Psa. 89:2 πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι
καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην
καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ.
MT Ps 90:2 בְּטֶ֤רֶם ׀ הָ֘רִ֤ים יֻלָּ֗דוּ וַתְּח֣וֹלֵֽל אֶ֣רֶץ וְתֵבֵ֑ל וּֽמֵעוֹלָ֥ם עַד־ע֝וֹלָ֗ם אַתָּ֥ה אֵֽל׃

Probably so.
Yes I think so too. Thanks for mentioning this, because I forgot to search for "προ". And I notice also that "εως του αιωνος" doesn't normally go with the present tense "συ ει" either, which here can neither be historical present nor have a perfect sense, so like in John 8:58 I see nothing wrong with taking the verb to be tied to the various times in focus, "απο του αιωνος" all the way "εως του αιωνος" respectively.
My own take on the present tense of εἷναι in both Jn 8:58 and in LXX Ps 89:2 is that it is the Parmenidean "dynamic" being -- of which Parmenides says that, if you say ἔστι, then you cannot say either ἦν or ἔσται -- this εἶναι has no beginning and no end.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Paul Thomson
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by Paul Thomson »

Hi, Jason.

There appears to be a similar construction in Matthew 6:8

μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.

The sense of this appears to be -

Mt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father has [always] perceived (οιδεν: present perfect) what things ye have need of, [even] before ye asked (ὐμας αιτησαι: aorist infinitive) him.

This appears to be comparable to John 8:58

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

And would justify considering its sense to be -

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham [even] became (γενεστηαι - aorist infinitive) [a person], I have [always] been (εγω ειμι - present or present perfect) [a person].

Anyway, there appears to be at least one other biblical example of the present perfect being used to describe an action or state that occurred before another action.
David Lim
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by David Lim »

Paul Thomson wrote:There appears to be a similar construction in Matthew 6:8

μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.

The sense of this appears to be -

Mt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father has [always] perceived (οιδεν: present perfect) what things ye have need of, [even] before ye asked (ὐμας αιτησαι: aorist infinitive) him.
"οιδεν", though originally perfect in form, is used with a present tense meaning of "[he/she/it] knows".
So Matt 6:8 means "therefore do not become like them, for your father knows of [those] [things] which you have need before you request him."
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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Paul Thomson wrote:There appears to be a similar construction in Matthew 6:8

μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.

The sense of this appears to be -

Mt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father has [always] perceived (οιδεν: present perfect) what things ye have need of, [even] before ye asked (ὐμας αιτησαι: aorist infinitive) him.

This appears to be comparable to John 8:58
No, it's not comparable. I already said that πριν Αβρααμ γενεστθαι locates the main clause completely in the past. Mt 6:8 is general or gnomic statement. "Every time you ask, the Father knows (before you ask)." But not "Every time Abraham is born, I exist (before he is born)." Before Abraham WAS born. The difference must be understood correctly. It works the same way in Greek than in English or Finnish or probably most of the languages which have non-past and past tenses and temporal restrictors. And BTW, Mt 6:8 isn't "before you asked" but "before you ask". The time reference here comes from the knowledge of extralinguistic reality, semantics and context, not from the aorist tense.
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Re: John 8:58 - Grammatical? πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

Post by Paul Thomson »

David Lim wrote:
Paul Thomson wrote:There appears to be a similar construction in Matthew 6:8

μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.

The sense of this appears to be -

Mt 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father has [always] perceived (οιδεν: present perfect) what things ye have need of, [even] before ye asked (ὐμας αιτησαι: aorist infinitive) him.
"οιδεν", though originally perfect in form, is used with a present tense meaning of "[he/she/it] knows".
So Matt 6:8 means "therefore do not become like them, for your father knows of [those] [things] which you have need before you request him."
I realise that the sense of "I have perceived" is "I know", just as the sense of "I have eaten" may be "I am digesting". E.g. "Why do you look so ill?" "I've eaten some off meat." = "I'm digesting some off meat." But the form is still present perfect.

I agree that in the context of Matt. 6:8 the Greek statement οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν is a gnomic present. However in a different context οἶδεν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν could in fact be an historic present.

If we were in financial difficulties and we approached your father for some finance to tide us over a rocky patch in my business, but you were a bit embarrassed to ask and you began to beat about the bush, and before you had put the question to him, he had said, “Yes, you can have some money, and loan a couple of trucks” I could well say to you later, “I don't believe it! We go to ask your father for some help, and your father knows what things you need before you ask him.” This is not gnomic but diescribes a single historic event.

και οἶδεν ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι

Now, why cannot Jesus mean in John 8:58, “Truly, Truly I am saying to you, 'Before Abraham becomes [Abraham], I am [me]”, Jesus using the historic present to take his hearers In their imaginations back to a time before Abraham's conception?

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
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