Page 1 of 1
Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 2nd, 2012, 4:45 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Philemon wrote:4 Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε μνείαν σου ποιούμενος ἐπὶ τῶν προσευχῶν μου, 5 ἀκούων σου τὴν ἀγάπην καὶ τὴν πίστιν ἣν ἔχεις πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους, 6 ὅπως ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεώς σου ἐνεργὴς γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ τοῦ ἐν ἡμῖν εἰς Χριστόν· 7 χαρὰν γὰρ πολλὴν ἔσχον καὶ παράκλησιν ἐπὶ τῇ ἀγάπῃ σου, ὅτι τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ, ἀδελφέ.
How should εἰς be understood in the two highlighted phrases?
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 3rd, 2012, 7:40 am
by cwconrad
Jonathan Robie wrote:Philemon wrote:4 Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε μνείαν σου ποιούμενος ἐπὶ τῶν προσευχῶν μου, 5 ἀκούων σου τὴν ἀγάπην καὶ τὴν πίστιν ἣν ἔχεις πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους, 6 ὅπως ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεώς σου ἐνεργὴς γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ τοῦ ἐν ἡμῖν εἰς Χριστόν· 7 χαρὰν γὰρ πολλὴν ἔσχον καὶ παράκλησιν ἐπὶ τῇ ἀγάπῃ σου, ὅτι τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ, ἀδελφέ.
How should εἰς be understood in the two highlighted phrases?
I see that nobody has yet responded to this. I'll offer what may appear to be an unguarded opinion and allow those who can or will to go ahead and prove it wrong: I am not convinced that there's a significant difference in NT Koine Greek, when there's a substantive referring to a person or persons, between (1) a dative, (2) πρὸς with accusative, (3) εἰς with accusative. I know the mantra: "Choice implies difference" -- but I think that the burden of demonstration of a difference between these three NT Koine Greek ways of expressing "to, towards, for, in association with" rests upon those who believe there is a difference. I rather suspect that usage of εἰς + acc. and ἐν + dat. when the object is a substantive referring to a person or persons is in many instances impossible or exceedingly difficult to distinguish.
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 3rd, 2012, 9:25 am
by David Lim
cwconrad wrote:Jonathan Robie wrote:Philemon wrote:4 Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε μνείαν σου ποιούμενος ἐπὶ τῶν προσευχῶν μου, 5 ἀκούων σου τὴν ἀγάπην καὶ τὴν πίστιν ἣν ἔχεις πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους, 6 ὅπως ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεώς σου ἐνεργὴς γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ τοῦ ἐν ἡμῖν εἰς Χριστόν· 7 χαρὰν γὰρ πολλὴν ἔσχον καὶ παράκλησιν ἐπὶ τῇ ἀγάπῃ σου, ὅτι τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ, ἀδελφέ.
How should εἰς be understood in the two highlighted phrases?
I see that nobody has yet responded to this. I'll offer what may appear to be an unguarded opinion and allow those who can or will to go ahead and prove it wrong: I am not convinced that there's a significant difference in NT Koine Greek, when there's a substantive referring to a person or persons, between (1) a dative, (2) πρὸς with accusative, (3) εἰς with accusative. I know the mantra: "Choice implies difference" -- but I think that the burden of demonstration of a difference between these three NT Koine Greek ways of expressing "to, towards, for, in association with" rests upon those who believe there is a difference. I rather suspect that usage of εἰς + acc. and ἐν + dat. when the object is a substantive referring to a person or persons is in many instances impossible or exceedingly difficult to distinguish.
I interpreted both to mean "for (for the reason of)", and for the first instance I also think it depends on what the prepositional phrase is construed with; ακουω σου την αγαπην ην εχεις εις παντας τους αγιους και την πιστιν εχεις προς τον κυριον. As for the second instance, this is how I read it: δια τι εστιν παν αγαθον εν ημιν? εις χριστον παν αγαθον εν ημιν εστιν. Carl, did you mean to imply that the first instance should be construed with "την πιστιν"? Also, do you mean that "εν ημιν" is just the same as "εις ημας" here? I read it to mean "in us" and not "to/for us".
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 3rd, 2012, 7:57 pm
by cwconrad
David Lim wrote:cwconrad wrote:Philemon wrote:4 Εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου πάντοτε μνείαν σου ποιούμενος ἐπὶ τῶν προσευχῶν μου, 5 ἀκούων σου τὴν ἀγάπην καὶ τὴν πίστιν ἣν ἔχεις πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους, 6 ὅπως ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεώς σου ἐνεργὴς γένηται ἐν ἐπιγνώσει παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ τοῦ ἐν ἡμῖν εἰς Χριστόν· 7 χαρὰν γὰρ πολλὴν ἔσχον καὶ παράκλησιν ἐπὶ τῇ ἀγάπῃ σου, ὅτι τὰ σπλάγχνα τῶν ἁγίων ἀναπέπαυται διὰ σοῦ, ἀδελφέ.
I see that nobody has yet responded to this. I'll offer what may appear to be an unguarded opinion and allow those who can or will to go ahead and prove it wrong: I am not convinced that there's a significant difference in NT Koine Greek, when there's a substantive referring to a person or persons, between (1) a dative, (2) πρὸς with accusative, (3) εἰς with accusative. I know the mantra: "Choice implies difference" -- but I think that the burden of demonstration of a difference between these three NT Koine Greek ways of expressing "to, towards, for, in association with" rests upon those who believe there is a difference. I rather suspect that usage of εἰς + acc. and ἐν + dat. when the object is a substantive referring to a person or persons is in many instances impossible or exceedingly difficult to distinguish.
I interpreted both to mean "for (for the reason of)", and for the first instance I also think it depends on what the prepositional phrase is construed with; ακουω σου την αγαπην ην εχεις εις παντας τους αγιους και την πιστιν εχεις προς τον κυριον. As for the second instance, this is how I read it: δια τι εστιν παν αγαθον εν ημιν? εις χριστον παν αγαθον εν ημιν εστιν. Carl, did you mean to imply that the first instance should be construed with "την πιστιν"? Also, do you mean that "εν ημιν" is just the same as "εις ημας" here? I read it to mean "in us" and not "to/for us".
Actually, in my earlier response, I wasn't commenting on the text at hand at all, but rather making a general observation about the semantic equivalence of modifier phrases constructed with εἰς and πρὸς with the accusative and ἐν with the dative of a substantive indicating a person. In Philemon 5 above, I think that πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν and εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους both mean "directed toward [the Lord Jesus/all the saints]; I also think that there's rarely any significant difference between εἰς τὸν Χριστόν and ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ. And there's no difference whatsoever between λέγει πρὸς αὐτόν and λέγει αὐτῷ.
I do not think that εἰς + acc. in these phrases will mean "for the reason of" -- I would expect that if the acc. object of εἰς is a person or persons, one would use διὰ + acc. or ὑπὲρ + gen.
As for the text of Philemon 4-6, there's quite a problem of sorting out the alternative ways of reading/understanding several of the words and construing the syntactic elements. I think that the NET Bible has an excellent note on these alternatives that need to be sorted out. I think that construing that final εἰς Χριστόν in verse 6 is especially difficult. Koine Greek often seems to use prepositional phrases in rather loose syntactic connection; I'd like to construe that phrase with ἐνεργὴς γένηται: "be efficacious in association with Christ" -- simply because I would prefer to construe prepositional phrases adverbially. But I'm not really very confident of that way of putting this text together. I do think, however, that εἰς Χριστόν here could just as well be ἐν Χριστῷ without a difference of meaning.
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 3rd, 2012, 11:15 pm
by David Lim
cwconrad wrote:Actually, in my earlier response, I wasn't commenting on the text at hand at all, but rather making a general observation about the semantic equivalence of modifier phrases constructed with εἰς and πρὸς with the accusative and ἐν with the dative of a substantive indicating a person. In Philemon 5 above, I think that πρὸς τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν and εἰς πάντας τοὺς ἁγίους both mean "directed toward [the Lord Jesus/all the saints]; I also think that there's rarely any significant difference between εἰς τὸν Χριστόν and ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ. And there's no difference whatsoever between λέγει πρὸς αὐτόν and λέγει αὐτῷ.
I do not think that εἰς + acc. in these phrases will mean "for the reason of" -- I would expect that if the acc. object of εἰς is a person or persons, one would use διὰ + acc. or ὑπὲρ + gen.
I see.
cwconrad wrote:As for the text of Philemon 4-6, there's quite a problem of sorting out the alternative ways of reading/understanding several of the words and construing the syntactic elements. I think that the NET Bible has an excellent note on these alternatives that need to be sorted out. I think that construing that final εἰς Χριστόν in verse 6 is especially difficult. Koine Greek often seems to use prepositional phrases in rather loose syntactic connection; I'd like to construe that phrase with ἐνεργὴς γένηται: "be efficacious in association with Christ" -- simply because I would prefer to construe prepositional phrases adverbially. But I'm not really very confident of that way of putting this text together. I do think, however, that εἰς Χριστόν here could just as well be ἐν Χριστῷ without a difference of meaning.
Hmm.. Can I ask then why it seems that many translations take "εις χριστον" to mean "for Christ"? I do agree that "δια +
acc." or "υπερ +
gen." is more common, but I thought "εις +
acc." was used for a weaker sense, whereas "δια" focuses on the reason that causes or implies or necessitates something while "υπερ" focuses on the "beneficiary" for whom/which something is done, just like "εις σωτηριαν" mean "for the reason of salvation" but "δια σωτηριαν" and "υπερ σωτηριας" are not used. In other words, can "εις χριστον" mean something like "for that which pertains to Christ"?
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 4th, 2012, 10:57 am
by Jonathan Robie
This has all been very helpful.
cwconrad wrote:As for the text of Philemon 4-6, there's quite a problem of sorting out the alternative ways of reading/understanding several of the words and construing the syntactic elements. I think that the NET Bible has an excellent note on these alternatives that need to be sorted out. I think that construing that final εἰς Χριστόν in verse 6 is especially difficult.
That question in verse 6 is precisely what spawned my question, of course. I agree that the NET note is helpful, here it is for reference:
NET Bible wrote:17 tn Grk “that the fellowship of your faith might become effective in the knowledge of everything good that is in us in Christ.” There are numerous difficulties with the translation and interpretation of this verse:
- (1) What is the meaning of ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεως σου (“the fellowship of your faith”)? Several suggestions are noted:
- (a) taking κοινωνία as a reference to “monetary support” and τῆς πίστεως as a genitive of source, the phrase could refer to Philemon’s financial giving which he has done according to his faith;
- (b) taking κοινωνία as a reference to “sharing” or “communicating” and the genitive τῆς πίστεως as an objective genitive, then the meaning would be “sharing the faith” as a reference to evangelistic activity;
- (c) taking κοινωνία in a distributive sense referring to fellowship with other believers, and τῆς πίστεως as a reference to the common trust all Christians have in Jesus, then the meaning is Christian fellowship centered on faith in Jesus;
- (d) taking κοινωνία as a reference to “participation” and the genitive τῆς πίστεως as a reference to the thing participated in, the meaning would then be Philemon’s “participation in the faith”;
- (2) what is the meaning of ἐνεργής (Does it mean “active” or “effective”?) and ἐπιγνώσει (Does it refer to simply understanding? Or “experiencing” as well?);
- (3) what is the meaning of the phrase παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ (panto" agaqou)? and
- (4) what is the force of εἰς Χριστόν (ei" Criston)?
It is difficult to arrive at an interpretation that deals adequately with all these questions, but given the fact that Paul stresses what Philemon has done for the brothers (cf. the γάρ in v. 7), it seems that his concern in v. 6 is on Philemon’s fellowship with other believers and how he has worked hard to refresh them. In this interpretation:
- (1) the phrase ἡ κοινωνία τῆς πίστεως σου is taken to refer to fellowship with other believers;
- (2) ἐνεργής is taken to mean “effective” (i.e., more effective) and ἐπιγνώσει involves both understanding and experience;
- (3) the phrase παντὸς ἀγαθοῦ refers to every spiritual blessing and
- (4) εἰς Χριστόν carries a locative idea meaning “in Christ.”
The result is that Paul prays for Philemon that he will be equipped to encourage and love the saints more as he himself is brought to a place of deeper understanding of every spiritual blessing he has in Christ; out of the overflow of his own life, he will minister to others.
Back to Carl:
cwconrad wrote:Koine Greek often seems to use prepositional phrases in rather loose syntactic connection; I'd like to construe that phrase with ἐνεργὴς γένηται: "be efficacious in association with Christ" -- simply because I would prefer to construe prepositional phrases adverbially. But I'm not really very confident of that way of putting this text together. I do think, however, that εἰς Χριστόν here could just as well be ἐν Χριστῷ without a difference of meaning.
Thanks, this is also helpful.
Re: Philemon 1:4, 1:6 - εἰς
Posted: April 4th, 2012, 2:33 pm
by cwconrad
David Lim wrote:cwconrad wrote:As for the text of Philemon 4-6, there's quite a problem of sorting out the alternative ways of reading/understanding several of the words and construing the syntactic elements. I think that the NET Bible has an excellent note on these alternatives that need to be sorted out. I think that construing that final εἰς Χριστόν in verse 6 is especially difficult. Koine Greek often seems to use prepositional phrases in rather loose syntactic connection; I'd like to construe that phrase with ἐνεργὴς γένηται: "be efficacious in association with Christ" -- simply because I would prefer to construe prepositional phrases adverbially. But I'm not really very confident of that way of putting this text together. I do think, however, that εἰς Χριστόν here could just as well be ἐν Χριστῷ without a difference of meaning.
Hmm.. Can I ask then why it seems that many translations take "εις χριστον" to mean "for Christ"? I do agree that "δια +
acc." or "υπερ +
gen." is more common, but I thought "εις +
acc." was used for a weaker sense, whereas "δια" focuses on the reason that causes or implies or necessitates something while "υπερ" focuses on the "beneficiary" for whom/which something is done, just like "εις σωτηριαν" mean "for the reason of salvation" but "δια σωτηριαν" and "υπερ σωτηριας" are not used. In other words, can "εις χριστον" mean something like "for that which pertains to Christ"?
Jonathan has copied out the NET note on this text, which you may find helpful as an exposition of the problems and some alternative ways of solving them. I don't take my cue from the translators in interpreting a Greek text, although it's sometimes useful to see how they've handled any ambiguities. In this instance, I think that the translators to whom you refer picked a way of construing εἰς Χριστόν that they thought made sense.