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B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum • Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας
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Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 6:03 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Jude 5 wrote:Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι,
εἰδότας ὑμᾶς ἅπαξ πάντα,
ὅτι Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας
τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν
I read this verse several times before I finally decided it actually said what it seemed to say. Assuming this is the right reading, can someone help me understand the notion of Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

Apparently, Justyn Martyr wrote something similar:
Justin Martyr wrote:He speaks therefore in the passage relating to Judah: 'A prince shall not fail from Judah, nor a ruler from his thighs, till that which is laid up for him come; and He shall be the expectation of the nations.' Genesis 49:10 And it is plain that this was spoken not of Judah, but of Christ. For all we out of all nations do expect not Judah, but Jesus, who led your fathers out of Egypt.
I found two more useful references on the Web:

Who saved Israel from Egypt? Ιησους or Κυριος in Jude 5

Jude 5, Ιησους and the incarnation

Any thoughts?

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 7:12 pm
by Ken M. Penner
Is it relevant that Joshua is Ἰησοῦς in Greek?

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 7:16 pm
by Stephen Carlson
Ken M. Penner wrote:Is it relevant that Joshua is Ἰησοῦς in Greek?
+1

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 28th, 2012, 8:46 pm
by Ken M. Penner
Jerome has it both ways: This Ἰησοῦς of Jude 5 both is (Adv. Jov. 1.21) and is not (Ep. 46.7) Joshua son of Nun.
Jerome, Against Jovinianus, trans. W. H. Fremantle et al., in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series, Volume VI: St. Jerome: Letters and Select Works ( ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace;New York: Christian Literature Company, 1893), 361. wrote:I will pass to Joshua the son of Nun, who was previously called Ause, or better, as in the Hebrew, Osee, that is, Saviour. For he, according to the epistle of Jude, saved the people of Israel and led them forth out of Egypt, and brought them into the land of promise.
Jerome, The Letters of St. Jerome, trans. W. H. Fremantle et al., in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series, Volume VI: St. Jerome: Letters and Select Works ( ed. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace;New York: Christian Literature Company, 1893), 63. wrote:I shall adduce but one passage, a passage in which this world is most clearly called Egypt. The apostle Jude, the brother of James, writes thus in his catholic epistle: “I will, therefore, put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this how that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” And, lest you should fancy Joshua the son of Nun to be meant, the passage goes on thus: “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day.”

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 29th, 2012, 12:03 am
by David Lim
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Jude 5 wrote:Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι,
εἰδότας ὑμᾶς ἅπαξ πάντα,
ὅτι Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας
τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν
I read this verse several times before I finally decided it actually said what it seemed to say. Assuming this is the right reading, can someone help me understand the notion of Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

[...]
(I thought that such discussion was outside the limits of B-Greek, but since no one said anything, here are my thoughts.)

If the original did say what you quoted, then indeed it says that Jesus saved a people out of the land of Egypt but afterwards destroyed the ones who did not believe. However I would question whether such an assumption is valid. In the context alone, which is that the writer wishes to remind his readers of something, it is perfectly natural if it is something very well known to all who accepted the account in Exodus, namely that though God brought a people out of Egypt, not all of them believed and therefore he destroyed the ones who did not believe. Thus the writer wants to remind his readers that God will destroy those who do not believe, even if they have "come out of Egypt". Therefore the correct reading in my opinion is "κυριος". Otherwise, one has to posit that his readers were previously taught that Jesus was actually there in Exodus, which does not support his reasoning well, because he is relying on the history of Israel to warn those who do not believe, and he is not trying to make some claim about the one who saved Israel out of Egypt. The unique variant is certainly not the original and does not need consideration, because honest scribes would have preserved it if it actually were, unless we posit that there was only one unique honestly copied extant manuscript that includes that sentence. ;)

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 29th, 2012, 6:29 am
by Barry Hofstetter
I saw this thread, and said to myself, "Self, I don't ever remember it like this." Checking my default NA text, I found the expected κύριος. But when I looked at my handy-dandy SBL text, I found Ἰησοῦς. Here is the apparatus note from the SBL text:

Ἰησοῦς Holmes WHmarg ] κύριος WH Treg; ὁ κύριος NIV RP; ὁ κύριος ἅπαξ NA

Holmes, M. W. (2010; 2010). Apparatus for the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (Jud 5). Logos Bible Software.

So, it's a TC issue, and discussing the merits of the reading is a bit beyond our purpose here, let's not forget... :?

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 29th, 2012, 7:08 am
by Jonathan Robie
Barry Hofstetter wrote:So, it's a TC issue, and discussing the merits of the reading is a bit beyond our purpose here, let's not forget... :?
Yup - we don't discuss who is right in TC debates here on B-Greek. But I do think it's appropriate to discuss what any particular reading means.

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: April 29th, 2012, 8:06 am
by Scott Lawson
If one supposes that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the angel of the Lord that led Israel out of Egypt then under the Shaliach principle you can plug in Jesus with very little problem. :D

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: May 2nd, 2012, 3:55 pm
by Shirley Rollinson
David Lim wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Jude 5 wrote:Ὑπομνῆσαι δὲ ὑμᾶς βούλομαι,
εἰδότας ὑμᾶς ἅπαξ πάντα,
ὅτι Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας
τὸ δεύτερον τοὺς μὴ πιστεύσαντας ἀπώλεσεν
I read this verse several times before I finally decided it actually said what it seemed to say. Assuming this is the right reading, can someone help me understand the notion of Jesus leading the Israelites out of Egypt?

[...]
(I thought that such discussion was outside the limits of B-Greek, but since no one said anything, here are my thoughts.)

If the original did say what you quoted, then indeed it says that Jesus saved a people out of the land of Egypt but afterwards destroyed the ones who did not believe. However I would question whether such an assumption is valid. In the context alone, which is that the writer wishes to remind his readers of something, it is perfectly natural if it is something very well known to all who accepted the account in Exodus, namely that though God brought a people out of Egypt, not all of them believed and therefore he destroyed the ones who did not believe. Thus the writer wants to remind his readers that God will destroy those who do not believe, even if they have "come out of Egypt". Therefore the correct reading in my opinion is "κυριος". Otherwise, one has to posit that his readers were previously taught that Jesus was actually there in Exodus, which does not support his reasoning well, because he is relying on the history of Israel to warn those who do not believe, and he is not trying to make some claim about the one who saved Israel out of Egypt. The unique variant is certainly not the original and does not need consideration, because honest scribes would have preserved it if it actually were, unless we posit that there was only one unique honestly copied extant manuscript that includes that sentence. ;)
Remember - Ἰησoυς is the Greek form of "Joshua". However, there are all sorts of variant readings for this verse. I too favor the "κυριος" reading.

Re: Jude 5 Ἰησοῦς λαὸν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου σώσας

Posted: May 5th, 2012, 11:28 pm
by David Lim
Shirley Rollinson wrote:Remember - Ἰησoυς is the Greek form of "Joshua". However, there are all sorts of variant readings for this verse. I too favor the "κυριος" reading.
Whatever reading one takes, the text clearly identifies the one who saved a people out of Egypt as the one who afterward destroyed those who did not believe, because "λαον εκ γης αιγυπτου σωσας" is just a participle modifying the subject of "απωλεσεν". The Israelite Joshua in the Hebrew writings did not do that, so logically I reject "ιησους" as reference to him.