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Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 8:20 am
by Jonathan Robie
Philippians 1:27-30 wrote: 27 Μόνον ἀξίως τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τοῦ Χριστοῦ πολιτεύεσθε, ἵνα εἴτε ἐλθὼν καὶ ἰδὼν ὑμᾶς εἴτε ἀπὼν ἀκούω τὰ περὶ ὑμῶν, ὅτι στήκετε ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι, μιᾷ ψυχῇ συναθλοῦντες τῇ πίστει τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, 28 καὶ μὴ πτυρόμενοι ἐν μηδενὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀντικειμένων, ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας, ὑμῶν δὲ σωτηρίας, καὶ τοῦτο ἀπὸ θεοῦ· 29 ὅτι ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ, οὐ μόνον τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν ἀλλὰ καὶ τὸ ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ πάσχειν, 30 τὸν αὐτὸν ἀγῶνα ἔχοντες οἷον εἴδετε ἐν ἐμοὶ καὶ νῦν ἀκούετε ἐν ἐμοί.
What is the antecedent for ἥτις in this text?

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 8:51 am
by David Lim
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Philippians 1:27-30 wrote: 27 Μόνον ἀξίως τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τοῦ Χριστοῦ πολιτεύεσθε, ἵνα εἴτε ἐλθὼν καὶ ἰδὼν ὑμᾶς εἴτε ἀπὼν ἀκούω τὰ περὶ ὑμῶν, ὅτι στήκετε ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι, μιᾷ ψυχῇ συναθλοῦντες τῇ πίστει τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, 28 καὶ μὴ πτυρόμενοι ἐν μηδενὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀντικειμένων, ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας, ὑμῶν δὲ σωτηρίας, καὶ τοῦτο ἀπὸ θεοῦ· 29 ὅτι ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ, οὐ μόνον τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν ἀλλὰ καὶ τὸ ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ πάσχειν, 30 τὸν αὐτὸν ἀγῶνα ἔχοντες οἷον εἴδετε ἐν ἐμοὶ καὶ νῦν ἀκούετε ἐν ἐμοί.
What is the antecedent for ἥτις in this text?
"ητις" is an indefinite relative pronoun and does not normally need an antecedent. "ητις εστιν αυτοις ενδειξις απωλειας υμων δε σωτηριας" means "that which is to them [a] showing forth of destruction but of your salvation". It seems somewhat to refer to "μηδενι"; "do not be frightened by anything because it shows forth destruction to them but shows forth your salvation.".

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 9:11 am
by cwconrad
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Philippians 1:27-30 wrote: 27 Μόνον ἀξίως τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τοῦ Χριστοῦ πολιτεύεσθε, ἵνα εἴτε ἐλθὼν καὶ ἰδὼν ὑμᾶς εἴτε ἀπὼν ἀκούω τὰ περὶ ὑμῶν, ὅτι στήκετε ἐν ἑνὶ πνεύματι, μιᾷ ψυχῇ συναθλοῦντες τῇ πίστει τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, 28 καὶ μὴ πτυρόμενοι ἐν μηδενὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀντικειμένων, ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας, ὑμῶν δὲ σωτηρίας, καὶ τοῦτο ἀπὸ θεοῦ· 29 ὅτι ὑμῖν ἐχαρίσθη τὸ ὑπὲρ Χριστοῦ, οὐ μόνον τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν ἀλλὰ καὶ τὸ ὑπὲρ αὐτοῦ πάσχειν, 30 τὸν αὐτὸν ἀγῶνα ἔχοντες οἷον εἴδετε ἐν ἐμοὶ καὶ νῦν ἀκούετε ἐν ἐμοί.
What is the antecedent for ἥτις in this text?
For what it's worth, Iver Larsen and I squared off on this question on the old mailing list in January of 2002 and came to different conclusions: the subject-header of the thread was "Phil 1:28 hHTIS" and all messages in the thread can be accessed at:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... html#19833
Suffice it to say: there's more than one perspective on this question.

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 10:11 am
by Jonathan Robie
cwconrad wrote:For what it's worth, Iver Larsen and I squared off on this question on the old mailing list in January of 2002 and came to different conclusions: the subject-header of the thread was "Phil 1:28 hHTIS" and all messages in the thread can be accessed at:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... html#19833
Suffice it to say: there's more than one perspective on this question.
I'm really glad I asked! Very interesting discussion there.

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 12:26 pm
by David Lim
cwconrad wrote:For what it's worth, Iver Larsen and I squared off on this question on the old mailing list in January of 2002 and came to different conclusions: the subject-header of the thread was "Phil 1:28 hHTIS" and all messages in the thread can be accessed at:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... html#19833
Suffice it to say: there's more than one perspective on this question.
Wait, what happened to the February archive? Are there more posts on the same topic in February?

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 12:29 pm
by Stephen Carlson
David Lim wrote:Wait, what happened to the February archive? Are there more posts on the same topic in February?
It's not there with the rest of the archives, but if you google b-greek "February 2002" you can find the messages, of which the only relevant one is Carl's recapitulation of his points.

Re: Philippians 1:28 ἥτις ἐστὶν αὐτοῖς ἔνδειξις ἀπωλείας

Posted: July 10th, 2012, 8:08 pm
by David Lim
Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:Wait, what happened to the February archive? Are there more posts on the same topic in February?
It's not there with the rest of the archives, but if you google b-greek "February 2002" you can find the messages, of which the only relevant one is Carl's recapitulation of his points.
Somehow Google gave nothing, but I found http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/ and http://web.archive.org/web/200910020627 ... ves/html4/, in case anyone needs it too. Thanks!