γάρ again in Mk 5:42
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
γάρ again in Mk 5:42
The discourse particle GAR is used to " explain" the previous sentence.
And the discourse grammar by Levinsohn says:
The presence of GAR constrains the material that it introduces to be interpreted as STRENGTHENING some
aspect of the previous assertion.
I wonder how Mk 5:42 can be explained according to these grammars.
και ευθυσ ανεστη το κορασιον και περιεπατει, ην γαρ ετων δωδεκα.
Here the statement that she was of age twelve simply states some background information.
In what sense would it strengthen or support or explain some aspect of the previous assertion?
Or do we need to loosen the constraint posed by GAR, so that it can simply state some background information without
any attempt to explain something?
Moon Jung
And the discourse grammar by Levinsohn says:
The presence of GAR constrains the material that it introduces to be interpreted as STRENGTHENING some
aspect of the previous assertion.
I wonder how Mk 5:42 can be explained according to these grammars.
και ευθυσ ανεστη το κορασιον και περιεπατει, ην γαρ ετων δωδεκα.
Here the statement that she was of age twelve simply states some background information.
In what sense would it strengthen or support or explain some aspect of the previous assertion?
Or do we need to loosen the constraint posed by GAR, so that it can simply state some background information without
any attempt to explain something?
Moon Jung
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Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
Mark's use of γάρ is considerable looser than that of other authors, but here it can be seen as strengthen in what sense she is a κοράσιον.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
Hmm. That makes sense.Stephen Carlson wrote:Mark's use of γάρ is considerable looser than that of other authors, but here it can be seen as strengthen in what sense she is a κοράσιον.
But still it seems that the notion of "strengthening" is too strong to be applied to this case.
The sentence ημ γαρ ετων δωδεκα simply identifies her in a little bit more details.
Is there something which I am not aware of in the jargon "strengthening"?
Moon Jung
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Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
yeah, if you want to understand what Levinsohn means by strengthening, it is best to consult his writings, such as Discourse Features of New Testament Greek (2001). There, he begins his treatment of γάρ as follows:
There isn't a royal road straight from a label to its definition. The best way to understand it is to read the pertinent literature and study the examples to get a feel for what the scholar is referring to.
So, there really isn't an incompatibility between strengthening and background material, as I see it. The only strange thing about Mark 5:42 is why, out of all the information to add to the main clause, the author relates the girl's age. Persumably, it was important for some reason.Levinsohn 2000:91 wrote:Background material introduced by γάρ provides explanations or expositions of the previous assertion (see Winer 1882:566-67, Robertson, n.d.:1190, Harbeck 1970:12). The presences of γάρ constrains the material the material that it introduces to be interpreted as strengthening some aspect of the previous assertion, rather than as distinctive information.
There isn't a royal road straight from a label to its definition. The best way to understand it is to read the pertinent literature and study the examples to get a feel for what the scholar is referring to.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
My feeling is that the so-called "strengthening" is something like "she was still young, which is why she immediately started walking about again as little children would".moon wrote:But still it seems that the notion of "strengthening" is too strong to be applied to this case.
The sentence ημ γαρ ετων δωδεκα simply identifies her in a little bit more details.
Is there something which I am not aware of in the jargon "strengthening"?
δαυιδ λιμ
Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
David and Stephen,
thanks for the input.
(1) David's suggestion that Mark metioned the age of the girl in order to convey that she was so young that she immediately went
around is interesting. But that suggestion seems to be based on the presupposition
that the GAR clause is supposed to "support" the previous assertion.
But the point of this verse is that perhaps our understanding of GAR may be too rigid.
This example suggests that at least in narratives, the GAR clause simply provides off-line background information, that is
the background information that is off the main line of story.
The constraint that GAR imposes is neither support nor strengthening
nor explanation. The information provided by GAR clauses strengthen or support or explain some aspects of the
previous statement but it could simply provide background information for the sake of providing background information.
NIV seems to suggest this position by using the parenthesis:
Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old).
At this they were completely astonished.
Moon Jung
thanks for the input.
(1) David's suggestion that Mark metioned the age of the girl in order to convey that she was so young that she immediately went
around is interesting. But that suggestion seems to be based on the presupposition
that the GAR clause is supposed to "support" the previous assertion.
But the point of this verse is that perhaps our understanding of GAR may be too rigid.
This example suggests that at least in narratives, the GAR clause simply provides off-line background information, that is
the background information that is off the main line of story.
The constraint that GAR imposes is neither support nor strengthening
nor explanation. The information provided by GAR clauses strengthen or support or explain some aspects of the
previous statement but it could simply provide background information for the sake of providing background information.
NIV seems to suggest this position by using the parenthesis:
Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old).
At this they were completely astonished.
Moon Jung
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Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
There are a number of proposals for the meaning of γάρ in the literature. Your proposal seems rather vague. I would encourage you to consult the literature and try to synthesize an understanding with constant reference to many examples, rather than get hung up on one particular example.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
Stephen,Stephen Carlson wrote:There are a number of proposals for the meaning of γάρ in the literature. Your proposal seems rather vague. I would encourage you to consult the literature and try to synthesize an understanding with constant reference to many examples, rather than get hung up on one particular example.
I guess that is what I am trying to do. Having read many reference grammars about GAR, I am trying to find
a most flexible and general constraint that can cover all uses of GAR. Mk 5:42 seems to be a test case.
Any proposal for GAR should be able to explain Mk 5:42 in a natural manner. The proposal
that in a narrative GAR signals an off-line background information is not vague,
though it is the least constrained among all proposals I have read and considered.
Moon Jung
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Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
Giving background information only for the sake of giving background information doesn't sound very sound
The problem is that the thing after γαρ should be background information for the thing before it. But why would it be in this case? There must be a logical connection. If it's background for something it's not logical to say it's "just for the sake of background" without any further explanation. It's like saying "she walked around, for some people had laughed at Jesus". The latter part is background just for the sake of background. But it's not logical. There must be a natural connection between the two parts. That's the idea of γαρ. If there's no logical connection the background information can be given in some other way, for example "there was a girl, twelve years old, who...".
I have another proposal for the logical connection: the girl was old enough to walk. Otherwise the reader could take her ability to walk as a miracle about which the people "were completely astonished".

I have another proposal for the logical connection: the girl was old enough to walk. Otherwise the reader could take her ability to walk as a miracle about which the people "were completely astonished".
Re: γαρ again in Mk 5:42
I have always simply read this as explanatory, giving the reason why the girl starts walking around. I suspect that κοράσιον (in the sense of "little girl") could be any age before puberty, perhaps with a usage of very young girls (pre-toddlers?) and it was important to Mark to communicate that she was of a proper age to get up and walk around.