Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
Posted: April 1st, 2015, 11:03 am
In Rev. 13:8 does ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modify ἐσφαγμένου or γέγραπται?
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Here's the entire text:grogers wrote:In Rev. 13:8 does ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modify ἐσφαγμένου or γέγραπται?
If ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modified ἐσφαγμένου, then ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου would mean "in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made".Rev 13:8 wrote:καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
I would argue that 'grammatically' it is strongly favoured, and the natural reading!Jonathan Robie wrote:Grammatically, that may be possible
I tend to agree. While I cannot point to a grammatical rule that would definitively show this to be true I also cannot show that it must modify ἐσφαγμένου. John makes this same point later on in 17:8 - ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου. Clearly here ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modifies γέγραπται.Jonathan Robie wrote:Here's the entire text:grogers wrote:In Rev. 13:8 does ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modify ἐσφαγμένου or γέγραπται?
If ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modified ἐσφαγμένου, then ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου would mean "in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made".Rev 13:8 wrote:καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
Grammatically, that may be possible, but I think it's much more likely that it modifies γέγραπται - πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς ... ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ("all who dwell on the earth whose name is not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world "), and the rest modifies the book: ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ("in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain").
Code: Select all
[cl οὗ οὐ *γέγραπται
[np τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ]
[pp ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ]
]
Code: Select all
[cl οὗ οὐ *γέγραπται
[np τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ]
[pp ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ]
[pp ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ]
]
We’re agreed that the grammar doesn’t settle it, but I would still contend that anyone well versed in Koine reading this sentence for the first time would normally associate ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου with the immediately-preceding ἐσφαγμένου. Even Aune, who agrees with your reading, concedes that:Jonathan Robie wrote: Grammatically, I think either reading is possible. Just looked at some commentaries, and very smart people obviously disagree about which is the more natural reading.
David E. Aune wrote:At first glance it seems more natural, given the existing word order of the text, to connect the phrase ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, “since the creation of the world” with ἐσφαγμένου, “slain” …
This is a pretty funny example. I’ll bet there are lots of folks who would agree with you about the misplaced modifier in this sentence, who would not agree with you about Revelation 13:8. ;->Jonathan Robie wrote:I do think you have to look at context and meaning and what you think. Consider the English sentence: "I knew a man with a wooden leg named Sam". I think "named Sam" modifies "a man", not "a wooden leg". It's not the grammar that tells me that. If you think it's likely that a wooden leg is named Sam, you might come to a different conclusion. If you think the person who wrote The Revelation would be likely to say "the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made", you might interpret this verse differently than I do.
Matthew 9:22 wrote:Καὶ ἐσώθη ἡ γυνὴ ἀπὸ τῆς ὥρας ἐκείνης.
Matthew 11:12 wrote:Ἀπὸ δὲ τῶν ἡμερῶν Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ ἕως ἄρτι ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν βιάζεται, καὶ βιασταὶ ἁρπάζουσιν αὐτήν.
Matthew 13:35 (extra to BDAG's list) wrote:ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ τοῦ προφήτου, λέγοντος, Ἀνοίξω ἐν παραβολαῖς τὸ στόμα μου, ἐρεύξομαι κεκρυμμένα ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
Matthew 22:46 wrote:Καὶ οὐδεὶς ἐδύνατο αὐτῷ ἀποκριθῆναι λόγον· οὐδὲ ἐτόλμησέν τις ἀπ’ ἐκείνης τῆς ἡμέρας ἐπερωτῆσαι αὐτὸν οὐκέτι.
John 11:53 wrote:Ἀπ’ ἐκείνης οὖν τῆς ἡμέρας συνεβουλεύσαντο ἵνα ἀποκτείνωσιν αὐτόν.
Luke 2:36 wrote:Καὶ ἦν Ἅννα προφῆτις, θυγάτηρ Φανουήλ, ἐκ φυλῆς Ἀσήρ — αὕτη προβεβηκυῖα ἐν ἡμέραις πολλαῖς, ζήσασα ἔτη μετὰ ἀνδρὸς ἑπτὰ ἀπὸ τῆς παρθενίας αὐτῆς,
Luke 8:43 wrote:Καὶ γυνὴ οὖσα ἐν ῥύσει αἵματος ἀπὸ ἐτῶν δώδεκα, ἥτις ἰατροῖς προσαναλώσασα ὅλον τὸν βίον οὐκ ἴσχυσεν ὑπ’ οὐδενὸς θεραπευθῆναι,
Acts 23:23 wrote:Καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος δύο τινὰς τῶν ἑκατοντάρχων εἶπεν, Ἑτοιμάσατε στρατιώτας διακοσίους ὅπως πορευθῶσιν ἕως Καισαρείας, καὶ ἱππεῖς ἑβδομήκοντα, καὶ δεξιολάβους διακοσίους, ἀπὸ τρίτης ὥρας τῆς νυκτός·
Romans 1:20 wrote:Τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασιν νοούμενα καθορᾶται, ἥ τε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἀναπολογήτους·
2 Corinthians 8:10 wrote:Καὶ γνώμην ἐν τούτῳ δίδωμι· τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν συμφέρει, οἵτινες οὐ μόνον τὸ ποιῆσαι ἀλλὰ καὶ τὸ θέλειν προενήρξασθε ἀπὸ πέρυσι.
I realise that we don't talk using the following way of discoursing on B-Greek, but never-the-less let me say what I think for a moment, i.e. that for examples like the τολμᾶν + infinitive "to make oneself bold enough to ..." in the beautifully constructed phrase (οὐδὲ ἐτόλμησέν τις ἀπ’ ἐκείνης τῆς ἡμέρας ἐπερωτῆσαι αὐτὸν οὐκέτι) Matthew 22:46, and the συμβουλεύεσθαι + ἵνα + subj. "thought out a plan among themselves to ..." in John 11:53 if we were to say that the two verbs are a syntactic compound, with the transitivity expressed grammatically in only one part of itself, that would just as plainly be saying that the first part (the part not directly associated with the "object") is subject affected, and so also fits the pattern that the others seem to be following. (The other way of taking it, which I don't think is so valid to say, is that even though it is not directly associated with that part of the construction, the τολμᾶν / συμβουλεύεσθαι is restricted / defined by the object separately (albiet in a parallel fashion) from how the finite verbs following them in the construction are.)2 Corinthians 9:2 wrote:οἶδα γὰρ τὴν προθυμίαν ὑμῶν, ἣν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καυχῶμαι Μακεδόσιν, ὅτι Ἀχαΐα παρεσκεύασται ἀπὸ πέρυσι· καὶ ὁ ἐξ ὑμῶν ζῆλος ἠρέθισεν τοὺς πλείονας.
Agreed.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:As a metacomment I want to say – even if it's a bit offtopic – that we can't detach language and real world background. It's very true that finding the original meaning of Bible or any other ancient text using our own theological or cultural background is always misleading and should be avoided. However, the original speakers/writers and listeners had their own background and that should be used. Grammar can't settle this down but cultural/historical/religious background could..
Of course, we can certainly look for those phrases to see how they are used in the language in the rest of the Bible and see if they occur in close proximity, I think that would be in bounds. But it's no substitute for exegesis. We prepare the ground for exegesis here, but the exegesis happens elsewhere.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:If the book written ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου was familiar idea, then it must be it. If not, and a lamb slain ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου was familiar or more probable, then it must be it. We have to use the normal means of exegesis and certain kind of biblical theology to interpret the text after grammatical interpretation (meaning normal fluent understanding of the language used). But we discuss here only about language with random forays to historical/cultural background.
It's certainly fine to point out what each interpretation would mean. It's certainly not OK to go into an extended debate on whether or not there was a belief in a lamb slain ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου in the early church. There's fuzzy ground in between, I would find it very relevant to see an early text that speaks of a lamb slain ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, if it existed.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:Systematic theology (in this case whether in our system the lamb should be slain or the book should written from the beginning of the world) is out of bounds.