Page 1 of 1

Luke 9:27 τινες τῶν *αὐτοῦ* ἑστηκότων

Posted: May 31st, 2015, 6:07 pm
by Jonathan Robie
Luke 9:27 wrote:λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς, εἰσίν τινες τῶν αὐτοῦ ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
I was surprised by the use of αὐτοῦ to mean 'here', but Plummer was helpful. I'm posting this partly in case it's interesting to someone else, and partly because I'm curious about what this means about the origin of αὐτός and its historical development.
Plummer wrote:For αὐτοῦ, "here," comp. Acts xviii. 19,̓ Mt. xxvi. 36. Mt. and Mk. have ὧδε,
Acts 18:19 wrote:κατήντησαν δὲ εἰς Ἔφεσον, κἀκείνους κατέλιπεν αὐτοῦ, αὐτὸς δὲ εἰσελθὼν εἰς τὴν συναγωγὴν διελέξατο τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις.
Matthew 26:36 wrote:Τότε ἔρχεται μετ’ αὐτῶν ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς χωρίον λεγόμενον Γεθσημανὶ, καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς· Καθίσατε αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ ἀπελθὼν ἐκεῖ προσεύξωμαι.
Abbott-Smith wrote:αὐτοῦ adv., prop. neut. gen. of αὐτός, [in LXX for פֹּה, בָּזֶה ;]

there: Mt 26:36, Mk 6:33, WH, mg., Lk 9:27, Ac 15:34, WH, mg., R, mg., Ac 18:19 21:4 .†
BDAG wrote:αὐτοῦ neut. gen of αὐτός functioning as deictic adv. designating a position relatively near or far. ... here καθίσατε αὐ (Gen 22:5) Mt 26:36; Mk 6:33 v.1; Luk 9:27; there Ac 15:34 v.1; 19:19; 21:4
This makes me wonder about the historical development of αὐτός, I assume it originated as a very general deictic indicator? Was it more commonly used to mean 'here' or 'there' in earlier Greek?

Re: Luke 9:27 τινες τῶν *αὐτοῦ* ἑστηκότων

Posted: May 31st, 2015, 6:50 pm
by cwconrad
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Luke 9:27 wrote:λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ἀληθῶς, εἰσίν τινες τῶν αὐτοῦ ἑστηκότων οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσιν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
I was surprised by the use of αὐτοῦ to mean 'here', but Plummer was helpful. I'm posting this partly in case it's interesting to someone else, and partly because I'm curious about what this means about the origin of αὐτός and its historical development.
Plummer wrote:For αὐτοῦ, "here," comp. Acts xviii. 19,̓ Mt. xxvi. 36. Mt. and Mk. have ὧδε,
Acts 18:19 wrote:κατήντησαν δὲ εἰς Ἔφεσον, κἀκείνους κατέλιπεν αὐτοῦ, αὐτὸς δὲ εἰσελθὼν εἰς τὴν συναγωγὴν διελέξατο τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις.
Matthew 26:36 wrote:Τότε ἔρχεται μετ’ αὐτῶν ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς χωρίον λεγόμενον Γεθσημανὶ, καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς· Καθίσατε αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ ἀπελθὼν ἐκεῖ προσεύξωμαι.
Abbott-Smith wrote:αὐτοῦ adv., prop. neut. gen. of αὐτός, [in LXX for פֹּה, בָּזֶה ;]

there: Mt 26:36, Mk 6:33, WH, mg., Lk 9:27, Ac 15:34, WH, mg., R, mg., Ac 18:19 21:4 .†
BDAG wrote:αὐτοῦ neut. gen of αὐτός functioning as deictic adv. designating a position relatively near or far. ... here καθίσατε αὐ (Gen 22:5) Mt 26:36; Mk 6:33 v.1; Luk 9:27; there Ac 15:34 v.1; 19:19; 21:4
This makes me wonder about the historical development of αὐτός, I assume it originated as a very general deictic indicator? Was it more commonly used to mean 'here' or 'there' in earlier Greek?
Τhis recalls to me a long-time fascination with the usage of αὐτοὺς in the proem of the Iliad of Homer, where the words ψυχὰς and αὐτοὺς mark the constituent elements of the warriors felled as consequence of Achilles' wrath -- and the contrasting end-destinations to which they were dispatched:
1 Μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
2 οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί’ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε’ ἔθηκε,
3 πολλὰς δ’ ἰφθίμους ψυχὰς Ἄϊδι προΐαψεν
4 ἡρώων, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλώρια τεῦχε κύνεσσιν
5 οἰωνοῖσί τε πᾶσι,
Hades was fancifully etymologized as ἀ-ιδ-ης, place of the "un-seen" where the ψυχαί go. αὐτοὺς, on the other hand, retains its deictic force: it's what you point to when you ask what happened to those warriors.