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1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 15th, 2015, 6:19 pm
by Stephen Hughes
The use of θηρίον in Revelations 13 and following presumes a negative connotation for the word, like our "monster". Titus 1:12 uses κακὰ θηρία to describe Cretans (a stereotyped?? people). Are those observations relevant for understanding θηριομαχεῖν in 1 Corinthians 15:23?
1 Corinthians 15:32 wrote:Εἰ κατὰ ἄνθρωπον ἐθηριομάχησα ἐν Ἐφέσῳ, τί μοι τὸ ὄφελος, εἰ νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, Φάγωμεν καὶ πίωμεν, αὔριον γὰρ ἀποθνῄσκομεν.
Titus 1:12 wrote:Εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν, ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης, Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
[As a side note: Two points against interpretation as "fought like a monster against a man" are (1) that
other compounds in -μαχεῖν seem "fight using", "fight for" or "fight against", but not "fight like", and (2) that the opponent that is fought against is expressed by a dative, πρός or ἐπί, but apparently not κατά.]
cf. List archive
question and
reply.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 8:12 am
by cwconrad
Stephen Hughes wrote:The use of θηρίον in Revelations 13 and following presumes a negative connotation for the word, like our "monster". Titus 1:12 uses κακὰ θηρία to describe Cretans (a stereotyped?? people). Are those observations relevant for understanding θηριομαχεῖν in 1 Corinthians 15:23?
1 Corinthians 15:32 wrote:Εἰ κατὰ ἄνθρωπον ἐθηριομάχησα ἐν Ἐφέσῳ, τί μοι τὸ ὄφελος, εἰ νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, Φάγωμεν καὶ πίωμεν, αὔριον γὰρ ἀποθνῄσκομεν.
Titus 1:12 wrote:Εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν, ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης, Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
It looks like θηρίον ranges across much the same spectrum as Latinate English "beast" insofar as it refers to undomesticated animals and, when used of such humans as Cretan cretins, "uncivilized" or "uncouth" people -- "savages." I recently re-read with fascination Eric Larson's account of the U.S. ambassador to Nazi Germany in the early 1930's,
In the Garden of the Beasts, a title nicely chosen to suggest more than a residence on Berlin's Tiergartenstraße.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 10:47 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Stephen Hughes wrote:The use of θηρίον in Revelations 13 and following presumes a negative connotation for the word, like our "monster". Titus 1:12 uses κακὰ θηρία to describe Cretans (a stereotyped?? people). Are those observations relevant for understanding θηριομαχεῖν in 1 Corinthians 15:23?
1 Corinthians 15:32 wrote:Εἰ κατὰ ἄνθρωπον ἐθηριομάχησα ἐν Ἐφέσῳ, τί μοι τὸ ὄφελος, εἰ νεκροὶ οὐκ ἐγείρονται, Φάγωμεν καὶ πίωμεν, αὔριον γὰρ ἀποθνῄσκομεν.
Titus 1:12 wrote:Εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν, ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης, Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
[As a side note: Two points against interpretation as "fought like a monster against a man" are (1) that
other compounds in -μαχεῖν seem "fight using", "fight for" or "fight against", but not "fight like", and (2) that the opponent that is fought against is expressed by a dative, πρός or ἐπί, but apparently not κατά.]
cf. List archive
question and
reply.
I don't think it's directly relevant.It's either a literal reference to fighting wild beasts, or a metaphorical reference about fighting human adversaries:
θηριομαχέω (s. θηρίον, μάχομαι) 1 aor. ἐθηριομάχησα
① be forced to fight with wild animals as a punishment, fight with wild animals (Diod S 3, 43, 7; Artem. 2, 54; 5, 49; Ptolem., Apotel. 4, 9, 10; Vett. Val. 129, 33; 130, 21; Jos., Bell. 7, 38) IEph 1:2; ITr 10; ἐπισήμως θ. MPol 3, 1. For 1 Cor 15:32 s. 2.
② to be in a position of having to contend with adversaries, struggle with, contend with. It is uncertain whether θ. is used lit. or fig. in 1 Cor 15:32. It is quite unlikely that Paul could have engaged in a real struggle w. wild animals (but. s. Bowen below). He says nothing about such an experience in 2 Cor 11:23–29, and Ac does not mention it (but Ac is silent about many matters). Also the apostle could not have been sentenced ‘ad bestias’ without losing his Roman citizenship, which he still held at a later date, and which formed the basis for his appeal to the emperor. If, nevertheless, the verb is to be taken as lit., the expr. is to be considered (w. JWeiss on 1 Cor 15:32 and WMichaelis, Die Gefangenschaft d. Paulus in Ephesus 1925, 118ff) a contrary to fact (unreal) conditional sentence: ‘if I had fought w. wild animals’ (against this JSchmid, Zeit u. Ort d. paul. Gefangenschaftsbr. ’31, 39–60; WKümmel, Hdb. ’49). But the expr. can also be fig. (freq. in Cynic-Stoic diatribe; AMalherbe, JBL 87, ’68, 71–80), as it certainly is in IRo 5:1 ἀπὸ Συρίας μέχρι Ῥώμης θηριομαχῶ … δεδεμένος δέκα λεοπάρδοις, ὅ ἐστι στρατιωτικὸν τάγμα from Syria to Rome I am fighting with wild animals, bound to ten leopards, that is, a detachment of soldiers (cp. OGI 201, 16 ἐπολέμησα ἀπὸ Π. ἕως Τ.); here Ign. describes the sufferings of his journey as a prisoner with a word that suggests a struggle w. wild animals (cp. Appian, Bell. Civ. 2, 61 §252, where Pompey says in sim. fig. language: οἵοις θηρίοις μαχόμεθα; Philo, Mos. 1, 43f. Ignatius longed to have actual wild beasts consume him IRo 4:1f; 5:2.). In AcPl Ha 3, 9; 4, 8; 5, 13 actual fights with wild beasts (Lat. venationes) are meant.—CBowen, JBL 42, 1923, 59–68; CCoffin, ibid. 43, 1924, 172–76; JHunkin, ET 39, 1928, 281f; R Osborne, JBL 85, ’66, 225–30; lit. s.v. ἀγών.—DELG s.v. θήρ. M-M.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 455). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 11:17 am
by Stephen Hughes
κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
Any ideas about this phrase? How else would he fight if not like a man?
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 11:34 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Stephen Hughes wrote:κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
Any ideas about this phrase? How else would he fight if not like a man?
The idea is fighting in the arena, for reward, for applause, for glory...
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 11:42 am
by Stephen Hughes
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:κατὰ ἄνθρωπον
Any ideas about this phrase? How else would he fight if not like a man?
The idea is fighting in the arena, for reward, for applause, for glory...
Good point. τὸ ὄφελος - heavenly reward.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, κατ’ ἄνθρωπον
Posted: November 16th, 2015, 12:11 pm
by cwconrad
I'd considered gladiatorial fighting in the arena as intended in connection with θηριομαχεῖν, but I don't think that need be the case. The phrase, κατ’ ἄνθρωπον, is not that uncommon: BDAG s.v. ἄνθρωπος:
b. of status κατὰ ἄνθρωπον (Aeschyl., Sept. 425; Pla., Phileb. 370f; Diod. S. 16, 11, 2; Athen. 10, 444b; Plut., Mor. 1042a; Witkowski 8, 5 [252 BC]) in a human way, from a human standpoint emphasizes the inferiority of human beings in comparison w. God; λαλεῖν 1 Cor 9:8; λέγειν Ro 3:5; Gal 3:15; περιπατεῖν 1 Cor 3:3. κ. ἄ. ἐθηριομάχησα perh. like an ordinary man (opp. as a Christian sure of the resurrection) 15:32. Of the gospel οὐκ ἔστιν κ. ἄ. Gal 1:11. Pl. κ. ἀνθρώπους (opp. κ. θεόν) 1 Pt 4:6.
I'm not so sure of this take on 1 Cor 3:3 either. It appears to me that the phrase κατ(ὰ) ἄνθρωπον is rather flexible like English usage of
à la .... Sometimes the context helps to clarify what an author means; at other times I think we can only make a guess.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 17th, 2015, 12:24 am
by Stephen Hughes
Barry Hofstetter wrote:The idea is fighting in the arena, for reward, for applause, for glory...
cwconrad wrote:I'd considered gladiatorial fighting in the arena as intended in connection with θηριομαχεῖν, but I don't think that need be the case.
How about being embroiled in legal proceedings?
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 17th, 2015, 6:43 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Stephen Hughes wrote:Barry Hofstetter wrote:The idea is fighting in the arena, for reward, for applause, for glory...
cwconrad wrote:I'd considered gladiatorial fighting in the arena as intended in connection with θηριομαχεῖν, but I don't think that need be the case.
How about being embroiled in legal proceedings?
I think you'll have to find a context in which it's so attested. I mean, it might be, and it seems a logical extension, but we don't know for sure apart from seeing it so used. The reason the commentaries bring up the arena is because that's the normal use of the word.
Re: 1 Cor. 15:23, θηριομαχεῖν (Rev. 13ff., Tit.1:12)
Posted: November 17th, 2015, 6:57 am
by cwconrad
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:Barry Hofstetter wrote:The idea is fighting in the arena, for reward, for applause, for glory...
cwconrad wrote:I'd considered gladiatorial fighting in the arena as intended in connection with θηριομαχεῖν, but I don't think that need be the case.
How about being embroiled in legal proceedings?
I think you'll have to find a context in which it's so attested. I mean, it might be, and it seems a logical extension, but we don't know for sure apart from seeing it so used. The reason the commentaries bring up the arena is because that's the normal use of the word.
It all depends on whose beast is being gored and which beholder it's in the eye of.