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John 1:15 ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, πρῶτός μου

Posted: January 31st, 2016, 7:41 am
by Jonathan Robie
John 1:15 wrote:Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων· Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον· Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν·
ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, and πρῶτός μου can each refer to time, place, or rank, which means this can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Here's one understanding:

Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος - the one who is coming after me. John is prophecying of one who is coming here, the present participle ἐρχόμενος might suggest immediacy. I don't think it matters much whether you interpret this as time or place, the meaning is the same, but this phrase does not seem to be about rank.

ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν - has become before me. This phrase might continue the prior time/space analogy, in the sense of "he who follows right behind me has passed me". I'm not sure that time / space / rank are distinct here, the analogy is drawn in time or space, but also does imply rank.

πρῶτός μου ἦν - he was first before me. This might refer back to the beginning, first in time. But I imagine it could also be relative, as in English: George and I walked to the store, I got there first.

Does this understanding seem right? Is there a better way to understand it?

Re: John 1:15 ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, πρῶτός μου

Posted: January 31st, 2016, 8:00 am
by cwconrad
Jonathan Robie wrote:
John 1:15 wrote:Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων· Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον· Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν·
ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, and πρῶτός μου can each refer to time, place, or rank, which means this can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Here's one understanding:

Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος - the one who is coming after me. John is prophecying of one who is coming here, the present participle ἐρχόμενος might suggest immediacy. I don't think it matters much whether you interpret this as time or place, the meaning is the same, but this phrase does not seem to be about rank.

ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν - has become before me. This phrase might continue the prior time/space analogy, in the sense of "he who follows right behind me has passed me". I'm not sure that time / space / rank are distinct here, the analogy is drawn in time or space, but also does imply rank.

πρῶτός μου ἦν - he was first before me. This might refer back to the beginning, first in time. But I imagine it could also be relative, as in English: George and I walked to the store, I got there first.

Does this understanding seem right? Is there a better way to understand it?
Yes, I think there is a better way to understand it.

ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν = "his existence antedates my existence"; to be sure, γέγονεν doesn't refer to "birth" here but to "being in existence"; "he has come into being and exists prior to me, i.e. prior to my coming into being and existence."

πρῶτός μου ἦν = "He was in existence long before me." The genitive sg. μου here is an (ablative) genitive of comparison; πρῶτος is not simply an adjective (although it certainly is an adjective) but it is the superlative of πρό; πρὸ μου = "in front of me" (spatially or temporally); πρῶτος μου = "far, far in front of me" (spatially or temporally)

Re: John 1:15 ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, πρῶτός μου

Posted: February 1st, 2016, 10:57 am
by Jonathan Robie
Thanks, this was helpful.

Re: John 1:15 ὀπίσω μου, ἔμπροσθέν μου, πρῶτός μου

Posted: July 5th, 2016, 3:32 pm
by Peter Streitenberger
Dear friends,
I hope I'm allowed to post a comment on this verse in German with some Greek allusion:
Das Wort ἔμπροσθέν kann räumliche oder zeitliche oder eine Bedeutung hinsichtlich der Stellung und Rangordnung annehmen, vgl. "ἐγένετο ἔμπροσθεν Ιουδα" (2Chr 13.3): "er befand sich (örtlich) vor Juda" bzw. "die vor mir in Jerusalem gewesen waren (γενομένους ἔμπροσθέν μου)", Pred 2.9. Eine Überordnung im Rang durch die Phrase zeigt: "τοῖς πᾶσιν ὅσοι ἐγένοντο ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν" (Pred 4.16): "allen denen, denen er vorstand". Würde man eine zeitliche Kategorie annehmen, hätte man beim mit "denn" eingeleiteten Satz eine Tautologie bzw. Redundanz, die auszuschließen wäre, daher bietet sich am ehesten eine Betonung der Vorrangstellung des Herrn Jesus gegenüber Johannes an, da dieser zeitlich vor ihm existierte, womit auf seine Präexistenz als Gott angespielt wird. Somit ist das Verständnis von Eusebius, das dem Text am klarsten entsprechend, wenn er den Sinn so umschreibt: "οὐκοῦν δέδεικται διὰ τούτων ροϋπάρχων τῆς Ἰωάννου γενέσεως ὁ θεολογούμενος καὶ ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ γεγονώς, συνέστη τε οὐμόνον λόγος ἀλλὰ καὶ θεὸς καὶ φῶς καὶ μονογενὴς πρὸ τῆς ἐνσάρκου παρουσίας ὑπάρχων τε καὶ ὠνομασμένος (De ecclesiastica theologia, 1.20,5): "Also zeigt der Theologe durch diese Dinge die Präexistenz (Anm.: Jesu) vor der Geburt des Johannes an und als über ihm stehend, stehen nicht nur das Wort und Gott und Licht und der Einzige vor der Ankunft zur Menschwerdung als existierend und genannt zusammen." Dem würde auch Origenes folgen, wenn er dazu meint: "τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ ὀπίσω αὐτοῦ ἐλθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ γέγονεν ἀναδειχθεὶς θεὸς καὶ δημιουργὸς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων" (Fragmenta in evangelium Joannis, 10): "Auf diese Weise, obwohl er nach ihm gekommen ist, war Jesus über ihm, womit angezeigt wird, dass er dessen Gott und Schöpfer ist.". Chrysostomos paraphrasiert wie folgt: "ὁ ὕστερον ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθεν γέγονε· τουτέστιν, ἐντιμότερος ἐφάνη" (In Joannem,59.89): "der später Kommende ist darüber, d.h. er wurde als verehrungswürdiger erkannt". Cyrill fasst den Sinn ebenso auf:"ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὀπίσω γέγονεν ἔμπροσθεν, μείζων Ἰωάννου καὶ κρείττων ἀναδεικνύμενος." (Commentarii in Joannem, 147): "Der nachher Kommende ist über mir, womit er (Jesus) als größer und vortrefflicher als Johannes dargestellt wird."
(The whole verse-by-verse Commentary is available here:http://www.bingo-ev.de/~ps2866/Das%20Jo ... gelium.pdf)

As a conclusion I'd say, that one should translate: "The one, coming after me, is (in rank) above me, because he was there before me". So: first an expression of the fact that Jesus would come after the appearance of John, then a reference to is higher rank with the explanation that he was in existence before John - as eternal Son of God.
Yours
Peter