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John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 13th, 2016, 3:01 pm
by Karen Pitts
In John 14:3, the ina clause includes eimi (present indicative) and ete (subjunctive). I am confused as to why "I am" is not in the subjunctive. Also, common English translations are "where I am you will be also". Is the "will" just part of the ina plus subjunctive? I would translate, "where I am you are also".

Thanks.

Karen Pitts
a very new seminary student at GGBTS in Colorado Springs

Re: John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 13th, 2016, 4:47 pm
by cwconrad
Karen Pitts wrote:In John 14:3, the ina clause includes eimi (present indicative) and ete (subjunctive). I am confused as to why "I am" is not in the subjunctive. Also, common English translations are "where I am you will be also". Is the "will" just part of the ina plus subjunctive? I would translate, "where I am you are also".

Thanks.

Karen Pitts
a very new seminary student at GGBTS in Colorado Springs
Welcome aboard, Karen.
Please note that the Forum rules (posted in the pink panel above) ask that the Greek text relating to a post be cited before putting a question. Ordinarily too we use the Unicode Greek font and cite the text that way rather than in a transliterated form. Here's the text:
John 14:3 wrote:καὶ ἐὰν πορευθῶ καὶ ἑτοιμάσω τόπον ὑμῖν, πάλιν ἔρχομαι καὶ παραλήμψομαι ὑμᾶς πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἦτε.
If you look carefully at the verbs within the sequence ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἦτε, you should note that ἦτε is indeed in the subjunctive; ἦτε is in fact the verb governed by the ἵνα in this construction, whereas the clause ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ is an adverbial relative clause. Within it εἰμὶ is indicative because it refers to real rather than potential being. The construction needs to be understood as ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἦτε (ἐκεῖ), ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ -- "so that you also may be (there/in that place) where I am." The adverb ἐκεῖ or its equivalent, something like ἐν ἐκείνῳ τᾠ τόπῳ, isn't expressed but understood.

Re: John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 13th, 2016, 5:02 pm
by Karen Pitts
Thanks. Your explanation cleared up my confusion. I haven't yet figured out how to move between Greek and English in text.

Karen

Re: John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 13th, 2016, 6:08 pm
by Robert Crowe
Karen Pitts wrote:ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἦτε.
ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ 'where I am' is a separate clause within a ἵνα clause. εἰμί being indicative shows that ὅπου is 'definite i.e. = 'where' not 'wherever'.

Jesus is referring to where he will be thereafter and strictly should have used the future indicative ἔσομαι. In this context, ἵνα ἦτε = 'that you may be' or 'that you will be'. The subjunctive does not necessarily imply any doubt about the fulfillment of the verbal action.

Hope this is helpful, Karen.

Re: John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 14th, 2016, 10:19 am
by Barry Hofstetter
Robert Crowe wrote:
Karen Pitts wrote:ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἦτε.
ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ 'where I am' is a separate clause within a ἵνα clause. εἰμί being indicative shows that ὅπου is 'definite i.e. = 'where' not 'wherever'.

Jesus is referring to where he will be thereafter and strictly should have used the future indicative ἔσομαι. In this context, ἵνα ἦτε = 'that you may be' or 'that you will be'. The subjunctive does not necessarily imply any doubt about the fulfillment of the verbal action.

Hope this is helpful, Karen.
Not strictly. Greek is as capable of English in using the present tense for the future, e.g., "I am going to the store later today," Cf. John 7:8, ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀναβαίνω εἰς τὴν ἑορτὴν ταύτην...

Re: John 14:3 ina clause

Posted: February 14th, 2016, 12:52 pm
by Robert Crowe
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Not strictly. Greek is as capable of English in using the present tense for the future, e.g., "I am going to the store later today," Cf. John 7:8, ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀναβαίνω εἰς τὴν ἑορτὴν ταύτην...
As I understand it, such a use is restricted to verbs of movement. Of course terms such as 'strictly' and 'restricted' are best avoided when describing languages where rules are made to be broken. In a snapshot view of a language, though, such as NT they are not seen to be broken a lot. I don't know of any examples, apart from the ἐιμὶ ἐγώ in John 14:3 where a stative verb such as ἐιμί is used in the way you mention.