GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

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Alan Patterson
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GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Alan Patterson »

TEXT IN QUESTION
25 ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται 26 και πας ο ζων και πιστευων εις εμε ου μη αποθανη εις τον αιωνα πιστευεις τουτο 27 λεγει αυτω ναι κυριε εγω πεπιστευκα οτι συ ει ο χριστος ο υιος του θεου ο εις τον κοσμον ερχομενος

For some reason the sequence of these two participles seems to be in a curious order. Throughout John (see immediately preceding verse for a different order) the usual order is believe then life. Are these two participles expressing anything of a temporal order? I realize this can be quite a controversial verse, and I am surely hoping to stay away from predestination. I just find the order of these two nouns odd.
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
Alan Patterson
timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

At the risk of straying into theology, I believe the text is speaking of two classes of believers: those who die and are resurrected at the παρουσια and those who remain alive at the παρουσια (similar to 1 Thessalonians 4). Thus, the fact that those in the second group are alive is in contrast to the first group and is fronted for emphasis.
Alan Patterson
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Alan Patterson »

Thank you Timothy, but my interest is in the order of these 2 participles. I was hoping a Johannine expert could provide one explanation for this reverse order. It is the only time it happens in all of John's writings, as far as I know. It seems worth the effort to check on any syntactical or grammatical issue. I can head to the commentaries later.
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
Alan Patterson
Brett
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Brett »

Alan

Regarding your question on the temporal order of this construct, και πας ο ζων και πιστευων, the temporal aspect of this is that they are both concurrent with each other,
that is, there is no order or sequence of these two participles. Since there is no intended sequence with this construct, ζων does not come "first" (as it relates to temporal sequence). So, John is not "reversing" any previous order of events, living or believing. You appear to be reading this as something like, the living and, then, the believing, as if these were referencing the same individual.

Hope that helps.
Brett Williams
Stephen Hughes
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Is order and temporal sequence a valid discussion to be having in regard to articular participles. Doesn't the article do something to them time-wise?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Is order and temporal sequence a valid discussion to be having in regard to articular participles. Doesn't the article do something to them time-wise?
In general, a substantive participle has less in view of aspect and more in view of the referent described in terms of the action of the verb. Temporal order is not in view here. That still leaves the question of the unusual word order. Looking at a bit of the context might help:

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

What I see here is a chiasmus interposing faith and life, and emphasizing the interrelationship between the two.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Stephen Hughes »

If it is a description, then the description would, presumably, hold true so long as the referent continued to do the action of the verb. In this case they are both states. I think the order shows which is dependent on the other. In this case, it seems that within the state of being alive, the believing happens.
John 11:25-27 wrote:25 Εἶπεν αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἀνάστασις καὶ ἡ ζωή· ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ, κἂν ἀποθάνῃ, ζήσεται· 26 καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ, οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. Πιστεύεις τοῦτο; 27 Λέγει αὐτῷ, Ναί, κύριε· ἐγὼ πεπίστευκα, ὅτι σὺ εἶ ὁ χριστός, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἐρχόμενος.
In Matthew 13:23, talking about the seeds, οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τὸν λόγον ἀκούων καὶ συνιών (συνιείς NA-UBS)· The understanding takes place because there is hearing, it is dependent on the hearing.

That is perhaps similar to a usage like Ἀπὸ τότε ἤρξατο ὁ Ἰησοῦς κηρύσσειν καὶ λέγειν, Μετανοεῖτε· ἤγγικεν γὰρ ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν. where he is speaking because he is preaching.

Looking at it lexically, rather than syntactically, one could express it as a meaning / function of καί.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Alan Patterson
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Re: GJohn 11:26 πας ο ζων και πιστευων

Post by Alan Patterson »

Stephen,

Thank you for your contribution. I can see how you have arrived at your conclusions. However, I have been reading the whole Gospel of John and have found the order of ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων to be in the reverse order of John's similar uses in the rest of the Gospel and Letters. I don't have a good enough memory to recall if this is the ONLY time this order is followed, but I think it is. Just like the words immediately preceding ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων, it is ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ, κἂν ἀποθάνῃ, ζήσεται, where πιστεύων is Present Tense and ζήσεται is Future Tense. I am not a Johannine scholar, so I don't know if these tenses in verse 25 are at all significant. i suspect I will find a satisfying answer to this as i continue to study John; I've got quite a ways to go!
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
Alan Patterson
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