Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

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Peng Huiguo
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Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 4th, 2019, 7:20 am

ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ·
ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές τινες ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξέστησαν ἡμᾶς,

ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές needs some explanation as well, in a way that makes good sense in Cleopas' narrative.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 4th, 2019, 10:54 am

dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 7:20 am
ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ·
ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές τινες ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξέστησαν ἡμᾶς,

ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές needs some explanation as well, in a way that makes good sense in Cleopas' narrative.
Question is two open ended. What is it that is causing difficulty?.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Peng Huiguo
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 4th, 2019, 11:14 am

I have an idea that the ἀλλά should be ἄλλα, but I'd like to see how folks here handle this one. My professor had some difficulty unravelling it. How would you translate it, Stirling?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Jonathan Robie » May 4th, 2019, 1:26 pm

dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 7:20 am
ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ·
ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές τινες ἐξ ἡμῶν ἐξέστησαν ἡμᾶς,

ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκές needs some explanation as well, in a way that makes good sense in Cleopas' narrative.
That bolded sentence isn't exactly easy, and it can be understood more than one way.

ἀλλά γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις = but even on top of all this

τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο is trickier.

ἄγει can be used in the sense of "spend time" or "occur" - if you take it as impersonal, then "it is three days since these things happened". Some take it as personal, referring to Jesus, something like "he is spending this day as the third since this happened."

τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν is the object of ἄγει:

ἀλλά γε καὶ
+ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις
o τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν
v ἄγει
+ ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Daniel Semler
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Daniel Semler » May 4th, 2019, 1:41 pm

BDAG treats Lk 24:21 extensively - it's referred to a eleven times.
ἁλλά γε καὶ is treated as an emphatic introduction to what follows

3. before independent clauses, to indicate that the preceding is to be regarded as a settled matter, thus forming a transition to someth. new (Just., A I, 3; 10, 1) other matter for additional consideration, but ἀλλὰ ὁ ὄχλος οὗτος . . . ἐπάρατοί εἰσιν but this rabble . . . is accursed J 7:49. ἀλλ᾿ ἐν τούτοις πᾶσιν ὑπερνικῶμεν (no, not at all!) but in all these we are more than conquerors Ro 8:37. ἀλλ᾿ ὅτι ἃ θύουσιν, δαιμονίοις . . . θύουσιν (no!) but they (the gentiles) offer what they sacrifice to inferior deities 1 Cor 10:20 (their second-rate status is Paul’s connotation). Cp. Gal 2:3 and Mt 11:7f ἀλλὰ τί ἐξήλθατε ἰδεῖν; (you could not have wanted to see that;) but what did you go out to see? Also to be explained elliptically is the ascensive ἀλλὰ καί (and not only this,) but also Lk 12:7; 16:21; 24:22; Phil 1:18 (Ath. 21, 4); negative ἀλλ᾿ οὐδέ Lk 23:15; Ac 19:2; 1 Cor 3:2; 4:3 (Ar. 9:1); strengthened ἀλλά γε καί indeed Lk 24:21; ἀλλὰ μὲν οὖν γε καί Phil 3:8; Hb 3:16 (s. 2 above) may well be rendered (as NEB) all those, surely, whom Moses had led out of Egypt (cp. Dio Chrys. 33, 36; 47, 3).

“ἀλλά,” BDAG, 45.
https://accordance.bible/link/read/BDAG#5209

I'd be inclined to read it like "but indeed" or "yet indeed apart from these things .... " or something like that. NRSV simply uses "indeed" and that's perhaps better though I think I like to retain some of the adversative nature of δὲ here.

BHGNT Luke is useful on this too. I used it the a year or so ago reading through Luke.

As ἀλλὰ καὶ γυναῖκες τινες I would translate as something like "but then some women". "then" is a bit of a stretch but "but also", "but even" doesn't sound quite right to me here. My only real justification for "then" is the following clause about the morning so that's highly contestable, I'm afraid.

Thx
D
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 4th, 2019, 3:06 pm

Daniel Semler wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 1:41 pm
BDAG treats Lk 24:21 extensively - it's referred to a eleven times.
ἁλλά γε καὶ is treated as an emphatic introduction to what follows ...
I can't improve on this.
dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:14 am
I have an idea that the ἀλλά should be ἄλλα ...
Luke 24:21 ἡμεῖς δὲ ἠλπίζομεν ὅτι αὐτός ἐστιν ὁ μέλλων λυτροῦσθαι τὸν Ἰσραήλ· ἄλλα γε καὶ σὺν πᾶσιν τούτοις τρίτην ταύτην ἡμέραν ἄγει ἀφ᾿ οὗ ταῦτα ἐγένετο.

I did some looking for ἄλλα γε καὶ instead of ἁλλά γε καὶ. Wondering what the referent of ἄλλα might be? Furthermore ἄλλα γε καὶ doesn't appear to be a common string in ancient greek texts. Didn't find an example.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 4th, 2019, 5:14 pm

English translations of this verse are quite weak, creating a "sag" in the progression of the narrative, adding nothing of interest to the conversation. I found an interpretation in a blog yesterday which isolates ἀλλά γε as a dejected answer "but things turned out otherwise" to the preceding hope that Jesus was the redeemer, tho the rest of the verse doesn't fit in. But it alerted me to the possibility of substituting ἄλλα for ἀλλά, and it does seem to work pretty well. Before I go further though, a word about BDAG — I've come to not trust its explanations totally, and would supplement it with a greek concordance (Kohlenberger's is good).

Cleopas had mentioned Jesus' death at this point in his narrative, and the part about hope for a redeemer was just a side comment, now he continues

Other things (ἄλλα, with emphatic γε) besides (καὶ σύν) these events (which I mentioned) happened (ἐγένετο) in the third day after these events (ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα), namely some women among us...

Noting that neuter plurals take singular verbs and that the normal temporal sense of accusative time marker is "extent of time" though here with ordinal number I think it could mean "in the third day". The ἄλλα καὶ before γυναῖκες is a parsing aid used by writers like Luke to help readers anchor a complex sentence, here identifying what he meant by "other things". Thus, it shouldn't be translated explicitly. To paraphrase then,

Here's something more — mark this — in the third day after those events, some women among us...

Btw BDAG's 3rd entry for ἄλλος has "Pertaining to being in addition, more".
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » May 4th, 2019, 5:48 pm

dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 5:14 pm

Other things (ἄλλα, with emphatic γε) besides (καὶ σύν) these events (which I mentioned) happened (ἐγένετο) in the third day after these events (ἀφ’ οὗ ταῦτα), namely some women among us...

The ἄλλα καὶ before γυναῖκες is a parsing aid used by writers like Luke to help readers anchor a complex sentence, here identifying what he meant by "other things". Thus, it shouldn't be translated explicitly. To paraphrase then,

Here's something more — mark this — in the third day after those events, some women among us...

Btw BDAG's 3rd entry for ἄλλος has "Pertaining to being in addition, more".
So ἄλλος is a vague cataphoric reference to what hasn't been mention yet. Why don't we find this elsewhere? Show us a citation from 1st century or earlier that has clause initial ἄλλα γε καὶ functioning in this manner.

Postscript: There are over a hundred ἀλλά γε καὶ samples. So scribes and editors of these texts have chosen to read uncials as ἀλλά γε καὶ and reject ἄλλα γε καὶ in every one of these.
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Bruce McKinnon
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Bruce McKinnon » May 4th, 2019, 8:19 pm

dimi wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 5:14 pm
...
Btw BDAG's 3rd entry for ἄλλος has "Pertaining to being in addition, more".
Yes, but BDAG appears to restrict this usage to when ἄλλος is used with a cardinal number.
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Peng Huiguo
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Re: Pls explain syntax of Luke 24:21

Post by Peng Huiguo » May 5th, 2019, 12:49 am

BDAG appears to restrict this usage to when ἄλλος is used with a cardinal number
Not really, the first eg. it gives from Plato's Laws doesn't conform to this usage. Granted Plato could be too distant.
There are over a hundred ἀλλά γε καὶ samples.
Where is this listed? I'd like to look at them. Btw BDAG's citations of the "non-but" usages of ἀλλά are not very convincing; all of them can be construed as "but" meaningfully. Come to think of it, ἀλλά γε καὶ could also have the cataphoric meaning I was driving at, I mean look at it! The crux isn't ἄλλα vs ἀλλά, but the full force of that Luke verse in the context of Cleopas' narrative.

Wrt the hundred ἀλλά γε καὶ samples I'll check the concordance tomorrow, tho it could miss all the extra-NT cases. I doubt I'll find even ten cases, let alone a hundred.
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