Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

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Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm

Gregory, please try to restrict you discussions more closely to the Greek, and not stray too far into general or theological interpretation. As it is, I see this as simply hyperbole that the Galatians were ready to do anything whatever he asked, no matter what it was. The idea of the eye being something very precious to which something even more precious is compared is a standard trope in ancient literature, cf. Israel being the "apple of God's eye" (Zech 2:8), or Catullus' famous quem plus illa oculis suis amabat. (3.5).
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Gregory Hartzler-Miller
Posts: 57
Joined: May 23rd, 2015, 10:09 pm

Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller » January 20th, 2020, 4:51 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm
Gregory, please try to restrict you discussions more closely to the Greek, and not stray too far into general or theological interpretation.
Barry, Ok, I will try.

There is a forum guideline that says: "Discussion must focus on the Greek text, not on modern language translations, theological controversies, or textual criticism." I have not been as mindful of that as I could have been.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm
As it is, I see this as simply hyperbole that the Galatians were ready to do anything whatever he asked, no matter what it was. The idea of the eye being something very precious to which something even more precious is compared is a standard trope in ancient literature, cf. Israel being the "apple of God's eye" (Zech 2:8), or Catullus' famous quem plus illa oculis suis amabat. (3.5).
I had not heard the "famous" one before. It is an interesting ancient thematic parallel.
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Bruce McKinnon
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Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Bruce McKinnon » January 20th, 2020, 5:31 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm
Gregory, please try to restrict you discussions more closely to the Greek, and not stray too far into general or theological interpretation. As it is, I see this as simply hyperbole that the Galatians were ready to do anything whatever he asked, no matter what it was. The idea of the eye being something very precious to which something even more precious is compared is a standard trope in ancient literature, cf. Israel being the "apple of God's eye" (Zech 2:8), or Catullus' famous quem plus illa oculis suis amabat. (3.5).
I agree.
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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Joined: May 23rd, 2015, 10:09 pm

Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller » January 21st, 2020, 10:43 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:
October 21st, 2019, 8:51 am

But it's interesting that there's an entire book on this subject.

Image
RE: πηλίκος] how great. A lot has been written about the supposed physical appearance, especially the largeness, of the letters Paul wrote with his own hand (Gal. 6:11):

Ἴδετε πηλίκοις ὑμῖν γράμμασιν ἔγραψα τῇ ἐμῇ χειρί.

Alternatively, the word πηλίκος (see the usage in Hebrews 7:4) could point to the the greatness, the high and exalted quality, of the whole epistle, which he had written to the Galatians at a distance. Although physically absent, Paul's written word served as authentic expression of his will, as in Phil. 1:19,

ἐγὼ Παῦλος ἔγραψα τῇ ἐμῇ χειρί, ἐγὼ ἀποτίσω· ἵνα μὴ λέγω σοι ὅτι καὶ σεαυτόν μοι προσοφείλεις.

He wrote with his own hand when he was away from the intended reader, and since it was written with his own hand, it had the same quality of authority as if he were present.

Earlier in the epistle to the Galatians, Paul made an obscure reference to "Christ crucified" having been "written formerly before your eyes," (Gal. 3:1, Cf. Eph. 3:3 καθὼς προέγραψα ἐν ὀλίγῳ):

οἷς κατ’ ὀφθαλμοὺς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐσταυρωμένος

I am wondering if, just as the epistle to the Galatians was written from the apostle "and the 'brothers' who are with me" (Gal. 1:2), so also Paul may have written a letter from Galatia, perhaps even inscribing it as coming from himself "and the 'brothers' who are with me" meaning the Galatians. If so, that would add meaning, not only to the expression, "written formerly before your eyes," but also to the phrase, "with my own hand," since they had formerly seen him in the process of writing.

This is speculation, of course, but it is based on words as used by Paul (with support from the usage in Hebrews, the only other NT usage of the word πηλίκος).
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Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller » January 22nd, 2020, 11:19 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm
Gregory, please try to restrict you discussions more closely to the Greek...
To make a fresh start, with a focus on the Greek, here is, according to my rereading, the smallest comprehensible discourse unit:

Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ, ὅτι κἀγὼ ὡς ὑμεῖς, ἀδελφοί, δέομαι ὑμῶν. οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι δι’ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον Θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

And here is the grammar of the discourse unit, as I understand it.

At the phrase, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν--καὶ connects πειρασμὸν with ἀσθένειαν; ὑμῶν is identical to the implied pronoun in the phrase ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς [ὑμῶν]; and the single preposition δι’/διά governs both ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς [ὑμῶν], and τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν.

ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου is explained in connection with κἀγὼ ὡς ὑμεῖς. The phrase, τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, implies that--in his σάρξ--the apostle had "become as" his audience in terms of their πειρασμός.

The subsequent three verbs all share the same object: οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε… ἀλλὰ... ἐδέξασθέ με…

Is that not coherent?
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Galatians 4:12-14 Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 22nd, 2020, 12:19 pm

Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote:
January 22nd, 2020, 11:19 am
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 20th, 2020, 3:22 pm
Gregory, please try to restrict you discussions more closely to the Greek...
To make a fresh start, with a focus on the Greek, here is, according to my rereading, the smallest comprehensible discourse unit:

Γίνεσθε ὡς ἐγώ, ὅτι κἀγὼ ὡς ὑμεῖς, ἀδελφοί, δέομαι ὑμῶν. οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι δι’ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον Θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.

And here is the grammar of the discourse unit, as I understand it.

At the phrase, καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν--καὶ connects πειρασμὸν with ἀσθένειαν; ὑμῶν is identical to the implied pronoun in the phrase ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς [ὑμῶν]; and the single preposition δι’/διά governs both ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς [ὑμῶν], and τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν.

ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου is explained in connection with κἀγὼ ὡς ὑμεῖς. The phrase, τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, implies that--in his σάρξ--the apostle had "become as" his audience in terms of their πειρασμός.

The subsequent three verbs all share the same object: οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε… ἀλλὰ... ἐδέξασθέ με…

Is that not coherent?
Coherent, but wrong. καί connects the clauses, not the two nouns, and it's impossible for the preposition to govern πειρασμόν, which is actually the direct object of ἐξουθενήσατε and ἐξεπτύσατε. με is only the direct object of ἐδέξασθέ. And it's perilously close to nonsense to suggest that ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς refers to the Galatians rather than Paul, particularly in light of ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου. ὑμῶν is an objective genitive.

So you have essentially completely misread the Greek to get to where you want to go. You can't do that. You have to start with what the Greek actually says, and it says nothing like what you want it to say.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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