In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 1:41 am Thhe moment my concern is to settle the grammatic issue.
Can you be specific? What grammatical issues are still unclear to you at this point in the discussion?
Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 1:41 amCan I be confident that the grammar is okay with the idea that what is in view is the single lamb of a non-authorized, off-calendar sacrificial offering?
I suspect the grammar doesn't know most of those words. What is your question about the grammar of this text?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Bill Ross
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Bill Ross »

Should I understand that the use of the singular "sacrificed" refers to a single victim? Or might it be using the iterative aspect to refer to all of the lambs of the Pesach being slaughtered at the temple?
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Jason Hare »

Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:40 pm Should I understand that the use of the singular "sacrificed" refers to a single victim? Or might it be using the iterative aspect to refer to all of the lambs of the Pesach being slaughtered at the temple?
The assumed "they" of ἔθυον should be understood as the Jews generally ("they were offering") and τὸ πάσχα refers to the Passover sacrifice. It wasn't a single lamb. The offering of the lamb(s) took some time, and this provides the time in which the disciples recalled their own need for a place to celebrate the festival.
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Bill Ross »

Can it not be parsed as singular as well?:

https://logeion.uchicago.edu/morpho/%E1 ... E%BF%CE%BD
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 1:05 pm Can it not be parsed as singular as well?:

https://logeion.uchicago.edu/morpho/%E1 ... E%BF%CE%BD
πάσχα is normally understood as a singular concept, the passover. In Mark 14:12, context indicates that, while a singular translation is fine, it represents the whole of the passover sacrifice, which included more than one baby sheep.
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Bill Ross »

Okay, well then that brings me back to the original question... is the grammar suggesting custom or simultaneity?
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 2:00 pm Okay, well then that brings me back to the original question... is the grammar suggesting custom or simultaneity?
ὅτε means that the action was going on (note again the imperfect tense) at the same time other actions are taking place in the context. If that's what you mean by "simultaneity" then yes. However, we know from the broader context that it also something that happened yearly, so customary.
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Bill Ross »

So only context can tell us if custom or simultaneity is intended. That' what I was afraid of! Thanks.
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Jason Hare »

Bill Ross wrote: April 8th, 2021, 2:09 pm So only context can tell us if custom or simultaneity is intended. That' what I was afraid of! Thanks.
What I'm afraid of is not seeing why it must be this way or that way. It was the time at when the Jews customarily offered the Passover at the Temple, and it was the time when the Jews at that specific time were offering the Passover at the Temple. It's the same thing. It was customary, and they were doing it according to the custom. I don't see the disconnect with that concept.
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Bill Ross
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Re: In Mark 14:12, how should ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον be understood?

Post by Bill Ross »

So your grammatical analysis is determined by the context? In my original question I tried very hard to affirm the validity (apart from context) of the grammar of both readings (where it was customary vs simultaneous). What I am looking or is any clue as to which reading is to be preferred based solely on the grammar; not the context.

If I understood Jeffrey's answer, he saw it as more simultaneous. You seem, on the basis of context, to see it as customary. I think that the simple fact of the matter is that only context can tell us. The imperfect rolls either way.
Last edited by Bill Ross on April 8th, 2021, 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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