Must the meaning of εἰς in καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν be translated as "into"? Is there any evidence that it bears the meaning "to"?
Jeffrey
εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
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εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
Jeffrey B. Gibson
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
Hard to translate εἰς by itself. What potential meanings of the phrase εἰς πειρασμόν do you have in mind? What parallels have you found to back up a given meaning?jgibson000 wrote: ↑April 24th, 2021, 9:13 am Must the meaning of εἰς in καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν be translated as "into"? Is there any evidence that it bears the meaning "to"?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
See Jonathan's questions. However, as it stands, εἰς with verbs of motion (of which εἰσφέρω is clearly one) often renders what we mean by "into."jgibson000 wrote: ↑April 24th, 2021, 9:13 am Must the meaning of εἰς in καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν be translated as "into"? Is there any evidence that it bears the meaning "to"?
Jeffrey
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 295). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.② to cause someone to enter into a certain event or condition, bring in, fig. ext. of 1: εἰ. τινὰ εἰς πειρασμόν bring or lead someone into temptation Mt 6:13; Lk 11:4; D 8:2; Pol 7:2. τὶ εἰς τὰς ἀκοάς τινος bring someth. to someone’s ears Ac 17:20 (cp. Soph., Aj. 149 εἰς ὦτα φέρει πάντων Ὀδυσσεύς); introduce ξένας διδαχάς strange teachings Hs 8, 6, 5 (cp. POxy 123, 13 συνείδησιν εἰσήνεγκαν=they sent a report; also X., Mem. 1, 1, 2 καινὰ δαιμόνια εἰσφέρειν [s. Just., A I, 5, 3; A II, 10, 5]).
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
The reason I asked about the preposition has to do with what Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4 might mean if the referent of πειρασμόν is a place, specifically the one that the LXX calls πειρασμὸς.
Jeffrey
Jeffrey
Jeffrey B. Gibson
6037 N. Fairfield Ave
Chicago, Il. 60659
jgibson000@comcast.net
6037 N. Fairfield Ave
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jgibson000@comcast.net
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
Regardless, the "to" vs. "into" distinction doesn't help here, in Exodus 17 they were clearly in the place, so they had gone into it somehow. καὶ παρενεβάλοσαν ἐν Ραφιδείν. You can use εἰς for that, c.f. Matthew 9:7 καὶ ἐγερθεὶς ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ.jgibson000 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2021, 10:18 am The reason I asked about the preposition has to do with what Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4 might mean if the referent of πειρασμόν is a place, specifically the one that the LXX calls πειρασμὸς.
I don't know if that foreign place name is declined or not or how, but modulo declension, I suspect it would be perfectly grammatical to say καὶ ἐγερθεὶς ἀπῆλθεν εἰς Ραφιδείν or to say καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς Ραφιδείν if they didn't want to go to that place to camp. That said, I would love confirmation or correction on that point from others.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
If poeple are willing to consider backgrounds, they should factor in the rabbinic idiom לידי נסיון "to the hands of trial", attested in a prayer.
1. Personally, I think that the phrase in Mt and Lk refers to succumbing to the temption as well as encountering temptation, and that such a "both and" understanding was understood contextually from time immemorial.
2. Such a Hebrew idiom could support that contextual understanding.
3. Paul, with rabbininc training under Gamliel, might be expected to concur: 1 Cor 10:13: πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.
1. Personally, I think that the phrase in Mt and Lk refers to succumbing to the temption as well as encountering temptation, and that such a "both and" understanding was understood contextually from time immemorial.
2. Such a Hebrew idiom could support that contextual understanding.
3. Paul, with rabbininc training under Gamliel, might be expected to concur: 1 Cor 10:13: πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
The Gottingen LXX has Ἦλθεν δὲ Ἀμαλὴκ καὶ ἐπολέμει Ἰσραὴλ ἐν Ῥαφιδίν for Ex 17:8. ἐπολέμει is not considered a verb of motion, so ἐν is appropriate Greek here. Also remember that we have translation literature in the LXX, so that ἐν Ῥαφιδίν renders בִּרְפִידִם, the prefix preposition often meaning what we mean by "in." Ῥαφιδίν is indeclinable.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑April 25th, 2021, 1:33 pmRegardless, the "to" vs. "into" distinction doesn't help here, in Exodus 17 they were clearly in the place, so they had gone into it somehow. καὶ παρενεβάλοσαν ἐν Ραφιδείν. You can use εἰς for that, c.f. Matthew 9:7 καὶ ἐγερθεὶς ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ.jgibson000 wrote: ↑April 25th, 2021, 10:18 am The reason I asked about the preposition has to do with what Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4 might mean if the referent of πειρασμόν is a place, specifically the one that the LXX calls πειρασμὸς.
I don't know if that foreign place name is declined or not or how, but modulo declension, I suspect it would be perfectly grammatical to say καὶ ἐγερθεὶς ἀπῆλθεν εἰς Ραφιδείν or to say καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς Ραφιδείν if they didn't want to go to that place to camp. That said, I would love confirmation or correction on that point from others.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
This morning, I realized that "to" seems to function the same way in English for verbs of motion and places.
"I went to the store" implies that I actually went into the store. "I went to the fence" does not imply that I went into it or crossed it. The difference involves the basic notions we have about how stores and fences work. "I went to the store, but it was closed" does not imply that I went into the store. Pragmatics play an important role here.
I suspect that's what we are seeing with Greek in this thread.
"I went to the store" implies that I actually went into the store. "I went to the fence" does not imply that I went into it or crossed it. The difference involves the basic notions we have about how stores and fences work. "I went to the store, but it was closed" does not imply that I went into the store. Pragmatics play an important role here.
I suspect that's what we are seeing with Greek in this thread.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: εἰς in Matt. 6:13//Lk. 11:4
And of course ...Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑April 25th, 2021, 9:25 am However, as it stands, εἰς with verbs of motion (of which εἰσφέρω is clearly one) often renders what we mean by "into."
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 295). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.② to cause someone to enter into a certain event or condition, bring in, fig. ext. of 1: εἰ. τινὰ εἰς πειρασμόν bring or lead someone into temptation Mt 6:13; Lk 11:4; D 8:2; Pol 7:2. τὶ εἰς τὰς ἀκοάς τινος bring someth. to someone’s ears Ac 17:20 (cp. Soph., Aj. 149 εἰς ὦτα φέρει πάντων Ὀδυσσεύς); introduce ξένας διδαχάς strange teachings Hs 8, 6, 5 (cp. POxy 123, 13 συνείδησιν εἰσήνεγκαν=they sent a report; also X., Mem. 1, 1, 2 καινὰ δαιμόνια εἰσφέρειν [s. Just., A I, 5, 3; A II, 10, 5]).
εἰσφέρω fut. εἰσοίσω LXX; aor. εἰσήνεγκα and εἰσήνεγκον (B-D-F §81, 2; W-S. §13, 13; Mlt-H. 263) pf. pass. ptc. εἰσενηνεγμένος 2 Macc 14:38; aor. εἰσηνέχθην LXX (Hom.+) gener. ‘bring in, carry in’.
① to bring into an area, bring in τινά: μὴ εὑρόντες ποίας (sc. ὁδοῦ) εἰσενέγκωσιν αὐτόν (i.e., εἰς τ. οἶκον) since they found no way to bring him in Lk 5:19; cp. vs. 18. οὐδὲν εἰσηνέγκαμεν εἰς τ. κόσμον we have brought nothing into the world (Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 294f τὸν μηδὲν εἰς τ. κόσμον εἰσενηνοχότα; cp. Cicero, Tusc. 1, 38 [91]) 1 Ti 6:7; Pol 4:1. Pass. τὸ αἷμα εἰσφέρεται … εἰς τὰ ἅγια the blood is brought into the sanctuary Hb 13:11 (cp. Lev 4:5; 16:27 [pass.]). Also forcefully drag in (PAmh 77, 22 [139 A.D.]) Lk 12:11. On J 18:16 v.l. s. RBorger, TRu, ’87, 35f.
② to cause someone to enter into a certain event or condition, bring in, fig. ext. of 1: εἰ. τινὰ εἰς πειρασμόν bring or lead someone into temptation Mt 6:13; Lk 11:4; D 8:2; Pol 7:2. τὶ εἰς τὰς ἀκοάς τινος bring someth. to someone’s ears Ac 17:20 (cp. Soph., Aj. 149 εἰς ὦτα φέρει πάντων Ὀδυσσεύς); introduce ξένας διδαχάς strange teachings Hs 8, 6, 5 (cp. POxy 123, 13 συνείδησιν εἰσήνεγκαν=they sent a report; also X., Mem. 1, 1, 2 καινὰ δαιμόνια εἰσφέρειν [s. Just., A I, 5, 3; A II, 10, 5]).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 295). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/