John 8:58

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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 8:58 Full Greek text surrounding Chrysostom's John 8:58 commentary

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Philip Arend wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:40 am The full Greek text of Chrysostom's Abraham section of Homily 55 section βʹ:
(with translation from the "Fathers of the Church" series)
Very helpful - thanks. Nice to see the whole thing in context.
Philip Arend wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:40 am ∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην· ἀλλ' Ἐγώ εἰμι; Ὥσπερ ὁ Πατὴρ αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ κέχρηται τῇ λέξει τῇ, Εἰμί· οὕτω καὶ αὐτός. Τοῦ διηνεκῶς γὰρ εἶναι σημαντικὴ αὕτη, παντὸς ἀπηλλαγμένη χρόνου· διὰ τοῦτο καὶ βλάσφημον αὐτοῖς εἶναι δοκεῖ τὸ ῥῆμα.

But why did He not say: ‘Before Abraham came into being, I was,’ but, ‘I am?’ He did so in the way in which His Father used this expression: ‘I am.’ For it meant that He has always existed, since it is free from all limitations of time. And therefore the phrase seemed to the Jews to be blasphemous.
And this is the quote I was looking for, thanks to Eeli, Daniel and Philip for this.
∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην· ἀλλ' Ἐγώ εἰμι;
According to Chrysostom, this would be the normal way to write it -- without a time clash:
Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην
That it is written this way instead is significant:
∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμι;
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58 Full Greek text surrounding Chrysostom's John 8:58 commentary

Post by Scott Lawson »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 9th, 2021, 8:45 am
Philip Arend wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:40 am The full Greek text of Chrysostom's Abraham section of Homily 55 section βʹ:
(with translation from the "Fathers of the Church" series)
Very helpful - thanks. Nice to see the whole thing in context.
Philip Arend wrote: August 9th, 2021, 3:40 am ∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην· ἀλλ' Ἐγώ εἰμι; Ὥσπερ ὁ Πατὴρ αὐτοῦ ταύτῃ κέχρηται τῇ λέξει τῇ, Εἰμί· οὕτω καὶ αὐτός. Τοῦ διηνεκῶς γὰρ εἶναι σημαντικὴ αὕτη, παντὸς ἀπηλλαγμένη χρόνου· διὰ τοῦτο καὶ βλάσφημον αὐτοῖς εἶναι δοκεῖ τὸ ῥῆμα.

But why did He not say: ‘Before Abraham came into being, I was,’ but, ‘I am?’ He did so in the way in which His Father used this expression: ‘I am.’ For it meant that He has always existed, since it is free from all limitations of time. And therefore the phrase seemed to the Jews to be blasphemous.
And this is the quote I was looking for, thanks to Eeli, Daniel and Philip for this.
∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην· ἀλλ' Ἐγώ εἰμι;
According to Chrysostom, this would be the normal way to write it -- without a time clash:
Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην
That it is written this way instead is significant:
∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμι;
But really the time clash is apparent in his question about why he didn’t use ημην. And it also seems that it is time in view and not identity….so he sees Jesus as responding to the question put to him about his age.

Parmenides is possibly in view again
Scott Lawson
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:35 am Except that people actually engaged his arguments and his use of Greek in particular. Scott, I believe you've seen my review of his book defending the JW's translation that was published in the WTJ. Enough said.
You wrote an article on this question? Is it available online?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 9th, 2021, 1:06 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: August 9th, 2021, 6:35 am Except that people actually engaged his arguments and his use of Greek in particular. Scott, I believe you've seen my review of his book defending the JW's translation that was published in the WTJ. Enough said.
You wrote an article on this question? Is it available online?
Not online, but I'll post it when I get a chance.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: August 9th, 2021, 1:31 pm
Jonathan Robie wrote: August 9th, 2021, 1:06 pm
You wrote an article on this question? Is it available online?
Not online, but I'll post it when I get a chance.
Well, I had a chance. It's posted in the "Books" forum.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: John 8:58

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: August 9th, 2021, 1:39 pm
Well, I had a chance. It's posted in the "Books" forum.
And for clarity, it's not an article on this issue, though it touches on it, but a review of BeDhun's "unfortunate book."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58 Full Greek text surrounding Chrysostom's John 8:58 commentary

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Jonathan Robie wrote: August 9th, 2021, 8:45 am
According to Chrysostom, this would be the normal way to write it -- without a time clash:
Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ ἤμην
That it is written this way instead is significant:
∆ιατί δὲ μὴ εἶπε, Πρὸ τοῦ Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμι;
Jonathan, I agree with both points of your interpretation. However, I want to be extra careful with everything about this passage. Therefore I have to admit that what Chrysostom says about the second point is his theological interpretation and doesn't necessarily tell us that εἰμι couldn't have been natural, too (to be exact you didn't say anything about that, either, only that it's "significant"). But at least this tells us that a Greek speaker saw the imperfect as a natural option, contra some modern interpreters who claim that the present tense was the only option.

Rolf Furuli says in https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-g ... 33137.html:
the question is whether Jesus' use of Greek present in John 8:58 is strange
or unusual. My answer is No, because he hardly had any other choice
when he should describe a state which held before a point in the past
and still held.
Wrong: he had a good choice.

Whether the present tense was a natural choice, too, is a different matter and must be argued by other means. You (Jonathan) and Barry described the problem you saw in the grammar in more grammatical terms while Stephen described it in more linguistic terms. My explanation is maybe between them, but I think the phenomenon is the same for all of us. We all have an uneasy feeling about the grammar because of the time clash.
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Three requests for this thread:

1. Can we please avoid making it too much about people? ( I just deleted one post because I felt it had sensitive personal information. )
2. Can we please add new material about new things, but not keep going over old ground already covered in previous posts?
3. Can we please keep it focused on the Greek?

I have enjoyed some of the posts in this thread, I have usually avoided discussing this verse online because it often breaks down into forcing theologies on the text. I think we have had some useful discussion of the Greek text. My sense is that the quality of this thread may not improve by dragging it out a lot longer.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

I’d still like to get a response to my question about what verb the dependent temporal adverbial clause πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι modifies.
Scott Lawson
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Scott Lawson wrote: August 9th, 2021, 5:45 pm I’d still like to get a response to my question about what verb the dependent temporal adverbial clause πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι modifies.
The main verb is εἰμί. πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι is an adjunct that establishes a temporal frame for the main verb.

+ πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι
s ἐγὼ
v εἰμί.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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