John 8:58

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Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Scott Lawson wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:11 pm But your comments are what I’ve been saying all along.
(Referring to Barry's comments.)

This is interesting, because I was perplexed about what Barry said, too, until now when I read it again carefully. He says
the aspect of the infinitive follows essentially the same rule as participles -- an aorist infinitive would then show action prior to that of the main verb.
Now Barry can comment on that himself, but actually he doesn't say that the infinitive would get its time from the main verb. Only that it would show prior action. That's different than getting time from the main verb. A logical companion to "would show prior action" would be that "the main verb would show subsequent action", and that wouldn't mean that the main verb would get its time from the temporal clause, either.

So, if I now understand Barry correctly, this means that there's a grammatical clash because in this passage the infinitive shows subsequent action.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

Stephen,
Answer my question. Is πριν Αβρααμ γενεσθαι a dependent adverbial clause? And if it is what is the verb that it is modifying?
Last edited by Scott Lawson on August 4th, 2021, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scott Lawson
Sean Kasabuske
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Sean Kasabuske »

Scott Lawson wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:38 pm Ok…then what is it? I asked you for a translation and you pointed me to the standard translations.
Can we really call the standard translation a "translation"? All it has is English words used in place of the Greek, with the text left at the interlinear stage. I don't call that a "translation", personally.

The very first step in translation would be to put the clause in standard English word order, which would give the following:

I am before Abraham came to be

Suddenly the implied echo from Ex. 3:14 is no longer audible (so to speak). I suspect that that's exactly why the text is left at the interlinear stage by some translators.

~Sean
Sean Kasabuske
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Sean Kasabuske »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:44 pm
Scott Lawson wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:11 pm But your comments are what I’ve been saying all along.
(Referring to Barry's comments.)

This is interesting, because I was perplexed about what Barry said, too, until now when I read it again carefully. He says
the aspect of the infinitive follows essentially the same rule as participles -- an aorist infinitive would then show action prior to that of the main verb.
Now Barry can comment on that himself, but actually he doesn't say that the infinitive would get its time from the main verb. Only that it would show prior action. That's different than getting time from the main verb. A logical companion to "would show prior action" would be that "the main verb would show subsequent action", and that wouldn't mean that the main verb would get its time from the temporal clause, either.

So, if I now understand Barry correctly, this means that there's a grammatical clash because in this passage the infinitive shows subsequent action.
As far as I can see, it's only a clash if one refuses to see the text as an example of the PPA. The infinitive refers to subsequent action in relation to the verb, but if the verb is being used to convey existence from *before* the time of Abraham until the present moment, then Abraham's birth is subsequent to the period of the Son's existence that occurred before that event.

~Sean
Last edited by Sean Kasabuske on August 4th, 2021, 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

And Stephen you responded with an objection to my translation of εγω ειμι with the Eternal but you didn’t take objection to the construction of the sentence which has before Abraham came to be standing alone with no connection to The Eternal. So I rightly took your objection to mean that εγω ειμι that there are better translational choices than The Eternal (even though you didn’t offer one) and that you had no problem with the grammar.

Scott Lawson wrote: ↑
So the meaning would be something like “Before Abraham came to be - the Eternal!
There are good ways to express “the Eternal” in Greek, but ἐγὼ εἰμί isn’t one of them.

Come on now, make your position clear
Scott Lawson
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Sean Kasabuske wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:46 pm The very first step in translation would be to put the clause in standard English word order, which would give the following:
Because our topic is more sensitive than many others it's even more dangerous to start talking about merits of translations or translation philosophies. But I want to remind about this: constituent order and order of clauses are meaningful, they bear information structure. Therefore something may be lost and is lost if it's changed. Translator is a traitor.

Here the information structure may be one key to understanding this passage. But it's necessarily contextual and partly out of our bounds.
Last edited by Eeli Kaikkonen on August 4th, 2021, 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eeli Kaikkonen
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Eeli Kaikkonen »

Sean Kasabuske wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:59 pm As far as I can see, it's only a clash if one refuses to see the text as an example of the PPA.
I would put it vice versa: it's a PPA only if one refuses to see the clash. And that's our main problem: which way is it?
Sean Kasabuske
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Sean Kasabuske »

Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: August 4th, 2021, 5:03 pm
Sean Kasabuske wrote: August 4th, 2021, 4:59 pm As far as I can see, it's only a clash if one refuses to see the text as an example of the PPA.
I would put it vice versa: it's a PPA only if one refuses to see the clash. And that's our main problem: which way is it?
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

~Sean
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

Stephen you said this:

“I don't have a problem with the standard translations. My "grammatical" point is that that the clash in reference times is not to be resolved grammatically, because the grammar doesn't license a particular way to resolve the clash. The participants have to bring in world/encyclopedic knowledge to do so.”

Pretty much what you said is what we already know-there is a problem with the grammar. The time of the dependent adverbial clause doesn’t make sense with the present tense ειμι. And you haven’t offered any solution. But you don’t have any objection to the standard translations.
Scott Lawson
Scott Lawson
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Re: John 8:58

Post by Scott Lawson »

Eeli,

My line of reasoning has been this:

1.) A dependent adverbial clause has to modify a verb. And it has to have it’s sense completed by it’s main clause.

2.) Infinitives, like participles, have controlling verbs which sets their relative time. So what is the controlling verb of the infinitive here? It can only be ειμι. So we have two lines of reasoning to point us to ειμι as the controlling verb.

So what is the main clause if not εγω ειμι? Since ειμι is present in tense but can be used as past referring then the two issues above are resolved. Whether or not you want to call it a PPA doesn’t matter. The present tense form is being used as a past referring verb and the “clash” in time is eliminated and standard grammar rules.

λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· τοσούτῳ χρόνῳ μεθ̓ ὑμῶν εἰμι καὶ οὐκ ἔγνωκάς με, Φίλιππε; ὁ ἑωρακὼς ἐμὲ ἑώρακεν τὸν πατέρα· πῶς σὺ λέγεις· δεῖξον ἡμῖν τὸν πατέρα;
(John 14:9 GNT28-T)
Scott Lawson
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