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Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 17th, 2020, 8:21 pm
by PhillipLebsack
Would someone please share advice on my translation of 1 Enoch 4:1? Again, I translated it from the Aramaic, as 4:1 is not extant in the Greek witnesses of 1 Enoch.

Is it good Greek? Any suggestions?

I have translated it as follows:

ιδετε την θερειαν πως καυματιζεν και διεθέρμαινεν ο ηλιος και ζητεις σκιαν και ανεσιν απ αυτον επι γη καυματιζομενος ει ου ευρισκοντος τροπος πορευομενος επι χουν η τους λιθους οτι ο θερμαινω

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 18th, 2020, 11:24 am
by Barry Hofstetter
PhillipLebsack wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 8:21 pm
Would someone please share advice on my translation of 1 Enoch 4:1? Again, I translated it from the Aramaic, as 4:1 is not extant in the Greek witnesses of 1 Enoch.

Is it good Greek? Any suggestions?

I have translated it as follows:

ιδετε την θερειαν πως καυματιζεν και διεθέρμαινεν ο ηλιος και ζητεις σκιαν και ανεσιν απ αυτον επι γη καυματιζομενος ει ου ευρισκοντος τροπος πορευομενος επι χουν η τους λιθους οτι ο θερμαινω
It's a bit like papyrus Greek. "Behold the summer, how the sun burns and heats and you, being burned on the land, seek shade and respite from it (should be ἀπ' αὐτοῦ)..." So far so good, but the rest is unintelligible. Is ει supposed to be εἰ (the conditional marker) or εἶ (from εἰμί)? ευρισκοντος looks like a genitive singular present m/n participle, but it agrees with nothing else in the sentence. Is it supposed to be a genitive absolute with τρόπος? And what would that mean? As it is τρόπος is nominative, and so is the participle πορευομενος, but that doesn't make sense either. "Upon dust or rocks" is okay, but the following phrase? Did you mean ὅτι ὂ θερμαίνω, "because that which I warm?"

Maybe tell us what you intended to say, and we can work from there.

And may I ask why? Are you retroverting to figure out something about a Greek original? If so retroversion is a notoriously iffy proposition, especially into Greek when it is possible to say things in so many different ways. Or just for fun and practice? If so then yeah! Love it... :D

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 9:33 am
by Ken M. Penner
PhillipLebsack wrote:
March 17th, 2020, 8:21 pm
Would someone please share advice on my translation of 1 Enoch 4:1? Again, I translated it from the Aramaic, as 4:1 is not extant in the Greek witnesses of 1 Enoch.

Is it good Greek? Any suggestions?

I have translated it as follows:

ιδετε την θερειαν πως καυματιζεν και διεθέρμαινεν ο ηλιος και ζητεις σκιαν και ανεσιν απ αυτον επι γη καυματιζομενος ει ου ευρισκοντος τροπος πορευομενος επι χουν η τους λιθους οτι ο θερμαινω
The Aramaic is as follows:
Lukaszewski wrote:4Q201 ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא …כוי]ה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [‏…ולמ]דׄרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן […
4Q204 ‏… ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה֯ […‏ ‏…כוי]תאׄ ולמדרךׄ […‏
Eclectic: ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא די שמש]א ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [על אנפי אר]עא כויתאׄ ולמדרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן [חמת]א […
Milik's English is as follows:
Observe ye the signs [of summer] whereby the sun burns and glows; and ye seek shade and shelter before it [upon] the burning earth; and ye are not able to tread on the dust or on the rocks on account of the heat.
So the Greek would be something like:
Ἴδετε τὰ σημεῖα τοῦ θέρου πῶς ὁ ἥλιος κατακαίει καὶ ἐκλάμπει καὶ ὑμεῖς σκιάν καὶ ἀπόκρυφα ἐρωτᾶτε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν. καὶ πατεῖν ἐπὶ τὸν χοῦν ἠ ἐπὶ τὴν πέτραν οὐ καταλήψεσθε ἀπὸ τοῦ θυμοῦ.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 12:48 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Ken M. Penner wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 9:33 am
The Aramaic is as follows:
Lukaszewski wrote:4Q201 ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא …כוי]ה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [‏…ולמ]דׄרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן […
4Q204 ‏… ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה֯ […‏ ‏…כוי]תאׄ ולמדרךׄ […‏
Eclectic: ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא די שמש]א ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [על אנפי אר]עא כויתאׄ ולמדרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן [חמת]א […
Milik's English is as follows:
Observe ye the signs [of summer] whereby the sun burns and glows; and ye seek shade and shelter before it [upon] the burning earth; and ye are not able to tread on the dust or on the rocks on account of the heat.
So the Greek would be something like:
Ἴδετε τὰ σημεῖα τοῦ θέρου πῶς ὁ ἥλιος κατακαίει καὶ ἐκλάμπει καὶ ὑμεῖς σκιάν καὶ ἀπόκρυφα ἐρωτᾶτε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν. καὶ πατεῖν ἐπὶ τὸν χοῦν ἠ ἐπὶ τὴν πέτραν οὐ καταλήψεσθε ἀπὸ τοῦ θυμοῦ.
Ken, maybe you are including some vocabulary as used in the LXX, but from my sense of the Greek:

1) ζητεῖτε rather than ἐρωτᾶτε. ἐρωτάω normally means "seek" in the sense of asking for information.

2) δύνασθε instead of καταλήψεσθε, which I have trouble seeing in the sense of "be able."

3) θυμοῦ -- I don't think θυμός is ever used of physical heat, I would use καύματος, since καῦμα is well attested of the burning heat of the sun.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 1:25 pm
by Ken M. Penner
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 12:48 pm
Ken, maybe you are including some vocabulary as used in the LXX, but from my sense of the Greek:

1) ζητεῖτε rather than ἐρωτᾶτε. ἐρωτάω normally means "seek" in the sense of asking for information.

2) δύνασθε instead of καταλήψεσθε, which I have trouble seeing in the sense of "be able."

3) θυμοῦ -- I don't think θυμός is ever used of physical heat, I would use καύματος, since καῦμα is well attested of the burning heat of the sun.
You're on to me, Barry! Yes, I'm trying to follow precedents in 1 Enoch and the LXX.
And I'm translating from the Aramaic rather than the English.
1) I used ἐρωτάω for בעה because in 1 Enoch 14:4 the Aramaic בעותכון is translated as ἡ ἐρώτησις ὑμῶν. But yes, the LXX pattern is to use ζητέω.
2) שׁכח in Aramaic is usually εὑρίσκω, but in Daniel 6:11 we find καταλαμβάνω and Daniel 2:35 καταλείπω. Of these three, I thought καταλαμβάνω came closest.
3) חֵמָה maybe should be ὀργή as in Daniel 3:13. I was getting θυμός from Hebrew חֵמָא. It's never καύμα in LXX.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 1:50 pm
by S Walch
Ken M. Penner wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 9:33 am
The Aramaic is as follows:
Lukaszewski wrote:4Q201 ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא …כוי]ה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [‏…ולמ]דׄרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן […
4Q204 ‏… ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה֯ […‏ ‏…כוי]תאׄ ולמדרךׄ […‏
Eclectic: ח֯ז֯וׄ לכן לדׄגׄלי [קיטא די שמש]א ב֯הׄון כוׄייה ושלקה ואנׄתׄןׄ [טלל ומסתר]יןׄ בׄעין מן קדמ֯יה [על אנפי אר]עא כויתאׄ ולמדרךׄ ע֯לׄ ע֯פ֯[ר]ה֯ [ועל כפיה] ל֯א תשכחון מ֯ן [חמת]א […
Milik's English is as follows:
Observe ye the signs [of summer] whereby the sun burns and glows; and ye seek shade and shelter before it [upon] the burning earth; and ye are not able to tread on the dust or on the rocks on account of the heat.
So the Greek would be something like:
Ἴδετε τὰ σημεῖα τοῦ θέρου πῶς ὁ ἥλιος κατακαίει καὶ ἐκλάμπει καὶ ὑμεῖς σκιάν καὶ ἀπόκρυφα ἐρωτᾶτε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν. καὶ πατεῖν ἐπὶ τὸν χοῦν ἠ ἐπὶ τὴν πέτραν οὐ καταλήψεσθε ἀπὸ τοῦ θυμοῦ.
Guess the only thing missing from this is a translation for the Aramaic כויתא/burn.

To keep with the verb κατακαίω, would the participle καιομένην work?

καὶ ὑμεῖς σκιάν καὶ ἀπόκρυφα ἐρωτᾶτε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν καιομένην γῆν.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 2:03 pm
by Ken M. Penner
S Walch wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 1:50 pm
Guess the only thing missing from this is a translation for the Aramaic כויתא/burn.
To keep with the verb κατακαίω, would the participle καιομένην work?
καὶ ὑμεῖς σκιάν καὶ ἀπόκρυφα ἐρωτᾶτε ἐνώπιον αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὴν καιομένην γῆν.
Perfect! Thanks.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 2:22 pm
by Barry Hofstetter
Ken M. Penner wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 1:25 pm
You're on to me, Barry! Yes, I'm trying to follow precedents in 1 Enoch and the LXX.
And I'm translating from the Aramaic rather than the English.
1) I used ἐρωτάω for בעה because in 1 Enoch 14:4 the Aramaic בעותכון is translated as ἡ ἐρώτησις ὑμῶν. But yes, the LXX pattern is to use ζητέω.
2) שׁכח in Aramaic is usually εὑρίσκω, but in Daniel 6:11 we find καταλαμβάνω and Daniel 2:35 καταλείπω. Of these three, I thought καταλαμβάνω came closest.
3) חֵמָה maybe should be ὀργή as in Daniel 3:13. I was getting θυμός from Hebrew חֵמָא. It's never καύμα in LXX.
Very interesting, thanks. This is where Greek gets...strange.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 2:31 pm
by S Walch
For those interested, a transcription of the Aramaic of Enoch from among the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts is available on Google books (at least for a few of the manuscripts anyway): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ay2 ... &q&f=false

From page 190 you should find them.

Our text here is on page 192, lines 6-8, and page 199, lines 25-28.

Re: Translating a Second Temple Aramaic text into Greek

Posted: March 19th, 2020, 2:39 pm
by Ken M. Penner
S Walch wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 2:31 pm
For those interested, a transcription of the Aramaic of Enoch from among the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscripts is available on Google books (at least for a few of the manuscripts anyway):
I was using the transcription from Pseudepigrapha.org (of which I am co-director). At https://pseudepigrapha.org/docs/text/1En you can select Qumran Aramaic from the first dropdown list, then 4Q201 or 4Q204 from the second dropdown list. Click on the text and you'll be shown an apparatus with the text from both manuscripts. Click the green + on the right and you can choose to have the Greek show in parallel (choose Gizeh as the manuscript).